this post was submitted on 24 Aug 2023
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Fuck Cars

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A place to discuss problems of car centric infrastructure or how it hurts us all. Let's explore the bad world of Cars!

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Image transcript:

Calvin (from Calvin & Hobbes) sitting at a lemonade stand, smiling, with a sign that reads, "Trains and micromobility are inevitably the future of urban transportation, whether society wants it or not. CHANGE MY MIND."

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[–] SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social 80 points 1 year ago (12 children)

I like how you assume that society will choose to have a future over self-immolation.

[–] Scrof@sopuli.xyz 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

Yeah that's a bold assumption. My bet is on "it's going to get progressively worse and never better". I have yet to be proven wrong. Since the day I was born everything's been enshittening with only inconsequential cosmetic improvements (lol technology, what a joke).

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[–] Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago (6 children)

If nothing else, car dependency is fiscally unsustainable. We might go kicking and screaming towards the solution, but eventually people will have no choice but to abandon the financial suicide that is making your city car dependent.

[–] SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

True, and I wish my city would realize it harder, sooner. On the other hand, I just read an article the other day that claims that the collapse of civilization has begun. A lot of societies throughout history perseverated with maladaptive habits after the local environment changed, and thus collapsed. A lot of them didn’t, though, and I hope that we’ll wise up in time.

[–] Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (4 children)

!collapse@lemmy.ml

But yeah, honestly, I'm worried myself that our society is starting to unravel if we don't get our act together. Unmitigated climate catastrophe may well prove to be the greatest disaster in human history, if you count all the wars, famines, genocide it may cause. I sincerely hope it doesn't turn out so dire, but so far humanity is stubbornly refusing to do anywhere near enough to stop it. Whether that's civilization-ending or merely really frickin bad remains to be seen, but it's also worthwhile noting that collapse doesn't always mean post-apocalyptic; for farmers in ancient Rome around its collapse, life probably didn't seem all that different day-to-day.

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[–] magnusrufus@lemmy.world 49 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I especially like that this format of the meme removes the d-bag that is in the original.

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[–] Izzy@lemmy.world 36 points 1 year ago (5 children)

What is micromobility? I am unfamiliar with this term.

[–] Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world 48 points 1 year ago (6 children)

It's things like bikes, ebikes, electric scooters, monowheels, etc.

[–] eestileib@sh.itjust.works 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)
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[–] FARTYSHARTBLAST@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago (3 children)
[–] CommunityLinkFixer@lemmings.world 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Hi there! Looks like you linked to a Lemmy community using a URL instead of its name, which doesn't work well for people on different instances. Try fixing it like this: !micromobility@lemmy.world

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[–] JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works 31 points 1 year ago (5 children)

We shouldn't take anything for granted. The US has happily killed it's cities for decades instead of investing in public transit. If we don't push for it, car companies and rich people will keep public transportation from ever taking off.

If remote work takes off, and ordering most everything online, I wonder if urban sprawl will get even worse.

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[–] Hikiru@lemmy.world 23 points 1 year ago (8 children)

The more people try to "innovate" transportation the closer it gets to going back to trains. Driverless cars, for efficiency have them communicate with eachother, to accelerate and brake at the same time, for example. That's just less efficient and more expensive trains.

[–] Tangent5280@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago (7 children)

There's a massive failure condition for your example - sure, autonomous cars behave like trains when they communicate with each other to sync acceleration and deceleration, but they can also separate themselves from the collective to drive you to the door of your home. In the train metaphor this would be like you sitting in your own train car, and the train car separating from the rest of it and driving you to your doorstep.

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[–] Snapz@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago

Good job with meme template, everyone needs to start adopting this format and not the one with the conservative fascist chud that abuses his wife.

[–] Rentlar@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I'm going to make the argument against trains for everything, despite being a huge fanatic for trains.

Trains are the most efficient transport method per tonne-km over land, yes. However from certain operational standpoints trains can make less sense than existing solutions.

When distance between stops for heavy rail becomes too short, you lose quite a bit of efficiency. Trains themselves aren't a one-size fits all solution as there are various types that each need their own form of investment (which is a lot $), when roads are compatible with both personal transport and large trucks with little investment by the transporter (govt pays for road maintenance).

Rail companies right now are chasing profits and neglecting operational improvements. In the US, hauling a long, LONG, old and slow train loaded with bulk aggregate, oil, grain, chemicals is more profitable than aiming for JIT capability that is more feasible with trucks. A complete change in societal incentives is necessary to bring back the usefulness of railway in all types of transport. Second, the North American way of railroad companies owning the tracks dissuades a lot of innovation and new firms from entering the market, unlike the "open road" where there are many competing OTR freight companies. None of the Big Six would like my idea of a nationally controlled rail/track system.

[–] schroedingershat@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

Electric motors are now capable of >90% regen, so the braking energy argument against short stops doesn't work anymore (and the energy during motion strictly less than a rubber tired vehicle with a worse aspect ratio so long as the trip is no longer).

The amount of rail needed for short distance distribution networks could still be prohibitive in regions designed for road though. Even then one could still argue that the total infrastructure costs are lower by moving the destinations slightly given how much roads cost to maintain.

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[–] SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Just to pick on one point, as a tangent, the government paying for roads with little cost to the freight carriers is a major, major problem. If the cost of transport is not factored into the cost of goods, it breaks the feedback mechanism of prices in the market affecting the supply of road transport, both per se, and in relation to other, possibly more efficient, means of transport. I came up with a reductio ad absurdum scenario to illustrate better: Imagine the government provided free air freight across oceans, without limit.

It’s pretty obvious what would happen: The logistics companies would abandon cargo ships, which cost them money, for the free air service. It would be horribly inefficient and wasteful, but that would not be their concern. We’d end up in the same situation that we are today with roads; our governments are going broke trying to pay for it. (In that world, I also imagine that people consider the service the normal baseline that they’ve structured their lives and businesses around, and can’t fathom ending it, just like roads in our world.

Anyway, passenger rail service has never been profitable. Railroads just operated passenger trains as a condition of being allowed to operate freight routes, which the government had subsidized with land giveaways. The question is whether passenger is more sustainable fiscally than roads for personal vehicles, and the survival of rail freight against massively subsidized road freight suggests that it would be. At least for longer, intercity routes.

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[–] uis@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Trains themselves aren't a one-size fits all solution as there are various types that each need their own form of investment (which is a lot $)

Trains(international and intercity), metro(across the city) and trams(across the city) - all of them use same wheels. They are not that different.

when roads are compatible with both personal transport

*(here personal transport excludes everything that is not a car)

and large trucks with little investment by the transporter (govt pays for road maintenance).

Maintanance is most expensive part of car infrastructure. At least between those that directly paid.

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[–] utopianfiat@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

mfs in 1923: "Cars will never replace trains and horses because there's whole swaths of the country with no highways or gas stations!"

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[–] MartinXYZ@sh.itjust.works 15 points 1 year ago

I agree. I just wanted to say that I really hope this meme completely replaces the original one, so we won't have to look at Steven Crowder's face as much going forward.

[–] I_Has_A_Hat@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago

inevitability the future of urban transportation

I don't know, I think you're forgetting the possibility of us all just dying.

[–] Nioxic@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Nope.

Those super long electric busses will become more popular than trains. They are muuch cheaper to get. You can just send in a new one in case the first one breaks down, etc.

Though we also cant all live nrar these "train stops"?

I dont live near any right now.

[–] Olgratin_Magmatoe@startrek.website 11 points 1 year ago (11 children)

Trains can transport higher loads of people though. So ultimately both trains and busses need to be the priority.

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[–] bouh@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago (5 children)

We can all live near a train stop. Roads were built everywhere. Train rails are actually not as expensive to build

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[–] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (25 children)

A huge problem with public transportation is safety and usability for small children, the elderly, and people with disabilities or who are sick. All these people often can't use bikes or scooters. They have problems with having to wait standing and constantly out of order escalators and elevators.

I don't own a car and live in a place with relatively good public transportation. That's the biggest problem I see, next to how badly organised it is (at least here in Germany).

[–] Beliriel@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That is an organizational problem because my country next to it has all those things at just about every train stop (Switzerland).

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[–] FireRetardant@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago (3 children)

One of the leading causes of death for children in North America is from cars. Well funded and built transit should be accessible to all in their urban areas. Stops should have sheltered waiting areas with adequate and maintained seating. Good maintanence and funding would reduce equipment failures in elevators and other equipment. Ideally we densify around this transit as well which would help to reduce travel distances for people with movement disabilties and promote walkability. 95% of the time well designed and funded transit paired with good urban density and zoning will be more accessible to those with disabilities than private vehicle ownership.

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[–] Pipoca@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Elderly people use electric mobility scooters at Disney literally all the time. They're pretty great for the elderly so long as there's accessability ramps everywhere.

Escalators and elevators being out of service seems like an issue of lack of investment in public transit.

And cities can be built around public transit and micromobility while still allowing cars. Generally, you'll have better access for emergency vehicles, and you can do the same for people with disabilities.

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[–] TheDoctorDonna@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago (3 children)

That's definitely not a problem everywhere. The buses we use in Canada are very disability friendly and we have programs to teach kids how to ride the bus alone. We have bike racks on the front of our buses too, so we can combine modes of transportation.

The biggest problem with public transit over here is lack of funding and infrastructure. The bus system is intentionally kept shitty here so that people will opt to buy cars where possible.

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[–] Aggravationstation@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I don't disagree but there are two points that spring to mind.

  1. This is an inevitable future, but I think it's very far off. In order to make this viable towns and cities would need to be radically different.
  2. How would large item courier services operate after that modification?
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[–] ekZepp@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I would personally bet on boats... (or even fins)

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[–] MrFagtron9000@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (19 children)

The suburbs are inherently compatible with trains and really any public transportation. They were quite literally designed around the car and the expectation that everyone would have a car.

Unless you plan to bulldoze the suburbs and then force everyone to move into higher density areas your anti-car dreams are never going to happen.

Although there are many American cities that could get much more anti-car and public transport would work. LA could theoretically not be such a car city with the appropriate infrastructure built in.

Why are the anti-car people anti-self-driving car? With self-driving cars we could mostly eliminate private car ownership.

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[–] GBU_28@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Can we get light rail and trams in there?

The focus urban transportation is a good one imo

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[–] ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca 8 points 1 year ago

Society wants it, companies don’t

That is why we won’t adopt trains and why we haven’t yet

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