I literally said it doesn't prevent scamming just like cash. Did people abhor cash because if you got scammed you couldn't just get it back by asking the bank? (Which also is not really the only thing that can happen btw, sometimes banks just take the hit if it's already been withdrawn or similar and choose to make you whole or not) My father had his bank account drained twice because of Zelle malware and the bank nearly didn't give him his money back the second time.

The overall supply of most crypto is known, and unless it's a privacy chain transactions are generally visible on the network rather then being completely hidden from view like other currencies.

[–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I literally said it doesn't prevent scamming just like cash.

You claimed crypto is immune to fraud.

I then showed how old fashion credit card is better. I didn't say cash.

My father had his bank account drained twice

My nephew lost all his crypto to malware.

Your father's bank "nearly" didn't refund but actually did. So you proved that banks provide safety. Credit cards provide even stronger safety between you and businesses. My nephew's crypto was gone with absolutely no recourse.

The overall supply of most crypto is known

That has absolutely nothing to do with fraud or losing your crypto to malware.

[–] Jakeroxs@sh.itjust.works -1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

So I consider fraud and scamming to be a bit different, but maybe I'm just being pedantic or misusing the word.

Moreso what I meant was things like literally printing money isn't possible outside of how the coin functions (assuming no bugs lol) and the global supply and such are known values that can be backed up.

Compare that to the opaqueness of the US banking system where things like bank runs can and do happen because money is essentially duplicated via things like loans backed only by promises rather then literally tied into the functionality of the currency itself.

On the bank point, there's no reason an authority of sorts couldn't do the same thing with crypto, they had to take the hit for the lost money as it was already gone, just like what can happen with crypto. I'm sorry your nephew lost his funds due to malware, however I'd argue they likely didn't take proper protections. For example we know things like card skimmers exist and you have to take actions to prevent those things from impacting you as well.

On your last point, hopefully I explained a bit more why, to me, it does relate to fraud, but yes it doesn't have anything to do with malware, nor did I claim it did.

But going back to the malware point, that's no different from getting mugged and losing your life savings because you kept all your cash on you. It sucks to get mugged but it's "common sense" not to carry all of your cash on you at a time, while it's not yet common sense for people who hardly understand the idea of crypto as to how they can/should secure their keys or distribute across multiple wallets potentially to guard against that.

[–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 1 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago) (1 children)

. For example we know things like card skimmers exist and you have to take actions to prevent those things from impacting you as well.

If your card is stolen, you are still safe. The credit card company reverses the charges.

US banking system where things like bank runs can and do happen

That's a horrible example because that's exactly the same as what happens with crypto on a daily basis. When a crypto is dumped, it's value plummets leaving bag holders.

With banks your money is insured up to $250,000.

Global monetary supply isn't fraud.

your life savings because you kept all your cash on you

Which is why I didn't say cash. I said credit card. If you are mugged and your credit card is stolen, you call the credit card company, report the theft, and you lose nothing. They don't hold you responsible for the list money.

Your dad's bank account was hacked and his money was returned by the bank TWICE. That's the opposite of fraud.

Crypto cannot do that.

Edit: this is fraud:

https://futurism.com/future-society/trump-meme-coin-disaster

[–] Jakeroxs@sh.itjust.works 1 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago) (1 children)

If your card is stolen, you are still safe. The credit card company reverses the charges.

You must know that's not actually how it works, often the funds can't be pulled back like that and instead the bank takes the hit. That is something that could be done with crypto as well.

That's a horrible example because that's exactly the same as what happens with crypto on a daily basis. When a crypto is dumped, it's value plummets leaving bag holders.

That's not what a bank run is, that's just a rug pull, and yes I agree there are a lot of scam coins that people fall for, that's not an indictment of the idea of crypto as a whole.

A bank run is when the bank does not literally have the money owed to depositors because they lend it out. (Or other means) and if too many attempt to withdraw at once they literally can not give people their money.

That's a completely different situation and it concerns me you think they're the same.

With banks your money is insured up to $250,000.

That's not a feature of the currency itself, it's a forced regulation due to bad behvior of the industry prior where people lost money. Again this could be done with a cryptocurrency as well with proper regulations in place.

Global monetary supply isn't fraud.

I never claimed it was, I said it was opaque. We can't know how many dollars are actually printed/in circulation compared to how much total is being "held" in banks.

Which is why I didn't say cash. I said credit card. If you are mugged and your credit card is stolen, you call the credit card company, report the theft, and you lose nothing. They don't hold you responsible for the list money.

I said cash, and have continued to reference cash, going back to the original BTC whitepaper the point has always been cash analogue with the ability to do more due to it being digital. It can't completely replace regulation and consumer protection just like cash couldn't without external enforcement.

Your dad's bank account was hacked and his money was returned by the bank TWICE. That's the opposite of fraud.

He was defrauded by the people who stole the money, but he wasn't scammed (going back to my previous point that these two words do not mean the same thing). My point was that the bank didn't "get the money back" they made him whole by taking the hit. Again that's not a feature of credit cards or currency, it's an external institution and regulation above them to enforce that. Again something I think should be done with crypto as well.

Your edit isn't fraud, it's scamming lol, there's articles showing the people who paid in the most got things from Trump, quid pro quo basically and the rubes who bought in for less thinking dear leader wouldn't rugpull them.

There seems to be a fundamental disconnect here.

The things you cite as positives for existing credit card/banking institutions did not magically appear out of thin air, nor did they start that way.

It takes time, regulations and knowledge for those things to be put in place, I'm all for that.

I also think shitcoins are scams, just like midnight infomercial products are mostly scams. Its not a hard concept to understand that commerce itself isn't a scam but some do fake commerce to scam or defraud people. The same is true for crypto, projects like BTC (I could go on a whole tangent about how it's been coopted and ruined but I won't) and ETH had actual usecases whereas doge/Litecoin/whatevercoin did not.

[–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 1 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

You must know that's not actually how it works,

That is exactly how it works. A credit card isn't a debit card. I have had my card number stolen. I saw weird charges on my card, called my credit card company and they reversed those charges immediately. No arguing was necessary because credit card companies work for you. Again this is a credit card, not a bank debit card.

That is something that could be done with crypto as well.

It can't be done with crypto because you are transferring direct. You would need someone in between in which case you have reinvented banking.

Your edit isn't fraud, it's scamming lol

I'm getting the impression you aren't in the US or British and don't speak English natively. This could be why we are having problems communicating.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fraud

[–] Jakeroxs@sh.itjust.works 1 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago) (1 children)

Ok do you understand how that actually works for the bank? I'm not questioning the end user impact lmao, I'm telling you what happens to the bank itself, please explain to me how if someone uses your stolen card to get cash before the fraud is noticed the bank magically gets that cash bank from the one who stole it.

The answer is, they don't, they have insurance and such and make you whole that way.

It can't be done with crypto because you are transferring direct. You would need someone in between in which case you have reinvented banking.

You don't actually, there could be a fund paid for via taxes or similar to aide people who've been scammed/defrauded while the criminal activity is investigated and punished by authorities, just like right now with traditional currencies.

I'm getting the impression you aren't in the US or British and don't speak English natively.

I'm from Texas, I am a licensed financial professional lmao. There is literally a difference in practice between a scam and fraud.

Fraud is an umbrella term, scams fall inside it. So I'm being pedantic and pointing out the differences in behavior between a generic fraud (such as your identity stolen or using your card pretending to be you in other examples) and scamming (things like ICO rugpulls, midnight infomercial jewelry, I'd argue "mystics" and megachurches)

Edit: To your point tho, it does still fall into the fraud category, but it helps to be more clear about what specific bad behaviors are being done to properly identify potential solutions IMO.

[–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 0 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

I'm not questioning the end user impact lmao

Their internal mechanisms and work with police work is irrelevant to me as a consumer. It is therefore irrelevant for you to bring it up.

You are arguing that a new car warranty doesn't exist because a dealership has to pay a mechanic to fix the defective car they sold. You are ridiculous.

I'm from Texas, I am a licensed financial professional

Then you god damn know the actual definition of fraud not your silly redefinition.

Gtfo.

[–] Jakeroxs@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 hour ago

Lol k, yes it's actually important to understand how money moves around when talking about a potential replacement.