this post was submitted on 25 Apr 2026
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Science Memes

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[–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 95 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

The modern notion of nation States, with clearly defined borders, and mechanisms of violence to enforce them, only arose around the 17th century.

Wolves don't build border walls, have customs checkpoints, or leave refugees to drown in the Mediterranean.

This isn't a "science meme", it's a falacious attempt to cloak reactionary rhetoric in the aesthetic garb of scientific rigor.

Might as well show plant tissues with defined cell walls and say "borders are natural".

[–] stickly@lemmy.world 9 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Only a half truth. Borders may have been loosely defined but they were absolutely defended with violence. You couldn't wander in and hunt in your neighbors woods, take their timber or set up a farm too close. Hell, sometimes they even had well defined natural borders or walls (see: Hadrian's wall, the great wall of China)

Moving through an area in large numbers might draw a violent response and you might be coerced to leave if you spoke the wrong language or dressed the wrong way. If you were an unknown group of strangers they may well let your boat sink or leave you to starve outside their walls. Modern states have simply codified these reactions into law.

Proto-states and the associated mechanisms developed extremely quickly once sedentary agriculture became dominant. If your entire livelihood is tied to a field of grain you no longer get to run or hide from conflict; controlling who can and can't get near it becomes imperative.

[–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 day ago

Only a half truth. Borders may have been loosely defined but they were absolutely defended with violence.

Yes, but the means by which that state violence was organized and carried out often looked very different. Obviously there was some sort of distinction between medieval lordships or what have you, but the organizational form of the modern nation state wasn't codified until the Treaty of Westphalia, which ended the 30 years war. This was co-constitutive with the enclosure of common land, and the birth of modern capitalist property relations.

But the nitty gritty details are besides the point. The main thing I'm stating in my comment is that OP is making a falacious appeal to nature. As though a dog pissing on a rock somewhere says anything at all about how humans should conduct border policy.

[–] HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world 2 points 20 hours ago

Wolves don't build border walls, have customs checkpoints, or leave refugees to drown in the Mediterranean.