this post was submitted on 21 Nov 2024
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No Stupid Questions

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[–] SirEDCaLot@lemmy.today 35 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) (4 children)

I think most commenters here are missing the point.

There is a more extreme reaction to transgender people as opposed to gay or lesbian people, because of issues like sports and bathrooms. And that hits at people's sense of injustice. For example if you have a young daughter, a lot of people will hate the idea of a person with a penis going into the women's room and being around there little girl. Or if that daughter grows up and joins a sports team, the idea of somebody who is hormonally male and thus naturally more muscular competing against your daughter is unpleasant.

Put differently, I think a lot of people we now classify as 'transphobic' don't actually have much problem with trans people themselves. Rather, with how the efforts to ensure trans people receive the full treatment of their chosen gender can affect the rest of society.

For me personally, I don't know what the answer is. I generally don't care which bathroom you use as long as you wash your hands. I have no problem with anyone presenting themselves to the world as whatever they wish, if it makes you happier than by all means. At the same time though, I don't think it's transphobic to point out that somebody who is largely or entirely biologically male will have a natural competitive advantage in the field of sports.
So while I certainly don't want to exclude anybody, I think there is at least a little justification for restricting some women's sports to those who are genetically female.

[–] BigMacHole@lemm.ee 1 points 9 minutes ago

LoL at thinking Republicans don't want people with Penises in their Daughter's Restroom! Conservatives are LITERALLY making it ILLEGAL for people with Penises and Beards to use anything BUT their Daughter's Restroom!

[–] 31337@sh.itjust.works 6 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

I think I've heard there are a lot of genetically male, but born female people in sports. I wonder if the same people are against those people playing in sports.

Idk how many transphobic people just care about specific issues. There's a lot of "groomer" rhetoric, hate, and general disgust. It's easy to get people to hate what they don't understand; and a lot of media is trying their hardest to cultivate hate against trans people to create an out-group, so they can control the in-group.

[–] SirEDCaLot@lemmy.today 4 points 4 hours ago

create an out-group so they can control the in-group

That's not just the media. It's basically everyone in power. Media, politics, government, corporations... Everyone.

It applies to the Democrats too. Especially in the 2016 election, they managed to successfully make Republicans the out-group. But I believe that was hugely damaging to the country, it created a lot more division when what is really needed is unity to focus on the issues that most people can agree on.

Because here's the cold truth- there is a body of policies that probably 80% of Americans would agree on. Things like efficient government, ending government corruption, reducing corporate control over government and elections, reducing income inequality, etc.
To quote Dylan Ratigan's famous rant, the United States is being extracted. And I think most people would like to stop that extraction.
But no major candidate stands for that. Bernie did, but the DNC iced him out because their wealthy corporate donors didn't want Bernie.

And that in my opinion is why Trump won. Harris certainly didn't push any major message of radical reform, just a bunch of the usual 'help the middle class' talk. Trump may be terrifying, but he does push a message of radical reform and changing the system.
To write that off and say half the country is racist or misogynist is to avoid learning from this situation.

[–] CitricBase@lemmy.world 2 points 3 hours ago

I think that one thing you and other centrists are missing is that any kind of regulation isn't just a regulation on trans women, it's a regulation on ALL women. It won't be just trans women that will be put in a position of constantly having their genitals checked.

Be it for bathrooms, sports, whatever, you're opening us up to a world where anyone that fancies themselves an authority will feel empowered to sexually assault any women they want. That's what's at stake here. This is a women's issue, not just a trans issue. Hell, even men will end up getting harassed in bathrooms.

Meanwhile, actual trans people are going to by and large steer clear of segregated contact sports like they've always done, feeling the pain of exclusion and marginalization while deserving none of it.

[–] LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.world 0 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago) (1 children)

I don't think anyone really cares about sports or bathrooms when it comes down to it It's all about the patriarchy. Not a single person I've met has mentioned a woman who became a man going into a men's restroom as a problem. Or them entering mens sports outside of the dimly vieled "oh well they could get hurt and a man needs to protect them from making their own decisions"

It all comes back to people thinking men have to take care of women because they can't take care of themselves without assistance.

It is a reflection of how weak the people who think such are. And projecting and trying to control others lives because they don't believe they can take care of themselves.

If you believe in people having freedom, stop trying to fucking chain them to your ideals. (Not aimed at you specifically)

[–] GrammarPolice@lemmy.world 2 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

There is no patriarchy involved though? Even women actively campaign against trans male participation in women sports.

Just take a look at this video: https://youtu.be/i39VHDmawtw

There are no men involved. Just women, so your argument doesn't track

[–] LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.world 1 points 52 minutes ago (1 children)

A YouTube video of Donald Trump talking on Fox News is your evidence that no men are invoved in having something against trans people. That tracks

[–] GrammarPolice@lemmy.world -1 points 43 minutes ago (1 children)

🤨. Are you being intentionally obtuse or what?

[–] LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.world 1 points 35 minutes ago* (last edited 34 minutes ago) (1 children)

Not at all. Thats the subject of the thread. Why are people, mainly conservatives, against trans people. And you posted a link to a White Male Conservative on a Conservative platform speaking against some stupid shit that doesn't matter, and saying men aren't involved.

The NCAA is a business. If you believe in a free market, then don't make laws to dictate their rules. If people actually care they'll stop buying that product and someone will start a new league with different rules and people can participate there.

If anything, do the country a favor and ban official sports teams from the education system. And people can join leagues outside of the college and it will help get education better suited. Scholarships should be for educating future minds to create a better future, not wasted on someone who isnt there for an education. The amount of corruption in schools do to sports in way to high.

[–] GrammarPolice@lemmy.world -1 points 30 minutes ago* (last edited 29 minutes ago) (1 children)

Bro hates Trump so much that he didn't watch past the first 5 seconds💀.

I'm not even going to bother reading what else you typed. You made the argument that the reason people are against trans people is majorly due to the patriarchy, and i linked to an example of a female volleyball team refusing to play a trans team as a direct rebuttal to that point. A rebuttal you would've understood if you had gotten over your Trump hate and low attention span to watch the entire video.

[–] LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.world 1 points 15 minutes ago (1 children)

"I'm not even going to bother reading what else you typed"

Proceeds to say I have a short attention span. Yeah there is no way I'm sitting through anything that Fox News broadcasts.

[–] GrammarPolice@lemmy.world 1 points 10 minutes ago

That's funny. Good luck buddy

[–] infinite_ass@leminal.space 3 points 3 hours ago

Rural IL here. Full of conservatives.

Nobody here cares if you are trans. Couldn't care less.

Never met a school church shooter either.

[–] shasta@lemm.ee 2 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

Most conservatives I know think it's dangerous to entertain trans ideas in children. They say kids don't know what gender really means because they haven't experienced puberty yet but the most effective time to use hormone blockers is before puberty. So they feel like it's the parents who are encouraging use of hormone therapy for their kids because the parents are brainwashed by left media, and essentially committing child abuse.

[–] VerticaGG@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

To them I say:

  • If I'm old enough to be disfigured by puberty, I'm old enough for HRT.
  • A trans child is a blessing, deserving of the choice to avoid a puberty they are telling you they do not want.
[–] GrammarPolice@lemmy.world 0 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

Except for the fact that puberty is an actual thing that occurs without outside influence. HRT isn't

[–] VerticaGG@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 11 minutes ago) (2 children)

Disclaimer: the obligation should not fall on a marginalized person to educate those ignorant. As such, when i have patiently done so, and I get met with "UH ACTUALLY DEBATE ME BRO", I meet their bad faith and pseudoscience with "ok nazi, get blocked". First they came for the trans and the disabled, THEN the socialists and trade unionists. I am just fine being indiscriminate with those who prove themselves to be intolerant. Protect yr energy fam.

The reply: That's like saying an epileptic person should go without life-saving seizure supression medication

HRT is no different than any other medical intervention that allows a person to have a better quality of life by influencing the already existing systems of hormones and neurotransmitters for the given conditions/issues/wellbeing.

What's more, in the event that the human being making the choice with their doctor to use hormone blockers changes their mind, puberty resumes AND compensates such that the overall outcome is near-entirely unchanged compared to if had they not used blockers. (And are much less likely to self-harm or take their own life overall)

The misinformation about trans kids and puberty is honestly audacious, such that anyone who actually cares about Trans People's safety, well being and happiness would recognize such if they so much as scratch at the surface of current medical knowledge.

Trans people are not your science experiment.

One's medical choices are noone's business but that human being and their doctor. Parental ownership over children is quite a flawed institution when many parents are absentee, and that's before you figure in the lack of educaction about, misinformation about, and outright internalized bigotry for trans people -- which many parents fail their children by not confronting, unpacking...but instead making the problem of the small human being who has no legal standing in our rancidly unjust systems. This society believes itself more civilized than barbarians or cro-magnons or marauding vikings or australopithecus...which only multiplies it's vicious indifferent violent tendencies.

[–] NotBillMurray@lemmy.world 2 points 43 minutes ago

"If God had wanted you to regulate your glucose levels he wouldn't have given you type 1 diabetes. Now give me your goddam insulin!"

[–] GrammarPolice@lemmy.world 0 points 45 minutes ago (1 children)

That's like saying an epileptic person should go without life-saving seizure suppression medication

Google false equivalency. 1.2% of people experience epilepsy. 100% of people experience puberty. Epilepsy requires intervention BECAUSE it isn't normal. So my argument still tracks.

Also, just because someone doesn't like an experience doesn't necessarily mean that it should not occur. People don't like getting their wisdom teeth removed but it's a process that must take place. And this is especially true with life changing decisions like HRT. Putting a decision so monumental into the hands of an individual still trying to figure out what career path they would like to take is borderline insane.

Also, I'm going to need some sources on the effects of HRT being easily reversed after treatment stops, because there is a point at which this procedure becomes somewhat permanent. Take for example the case of Chloe Cole who I'm pretty sure you've heard of.

[–] VerticaGG@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 26 minutes ago

"Normal"

Okay nazi. Ez block.

[–] inv3r510n@lemmy.world 12 points 7 hours ago (7 children)

Because queerness (trans, gender non conforming, gender fluid, agender, bigender and related) threatens hierarchy.

In western society regardless of how ‘progressive’ some parts of it have gotten, for the majority there’s still a strict hierarchy. Man most important, then woman, then children first boys then girls. Trans people completely disrupt this hierarchy by being able to change what they are and those who cling to hierarchy freak the fuck out over it.

Then there’s the sexual panic, a straight man who’s insecure is gonna freak out if the woman they think is cute actually has a penis.

[–] BoxOfFeet@lemmy.world 3 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Meh, I don't know if it's strictly a hierarchy thing. I think it's probably more "just" a heteronormative thing. Closed-minded people who don't like things or people that are different. Fear of difference. I'm just speculating, here.

I can also see the sexual panic aspect.

[–] GrammarPolice@lemmy.world 2 points 1 hour ago

That's cuz it isn't hierarchy, it's tradition. People have a hard time warming up to things that are very different from the norm.

[–] GiveOver@feddit.uk 8 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

If that were true, then it would be trans men getting the most attention because they're the ones cheating their way up this hierarchy. In my experience, 99% of the hate is directed at trans women.

[–] inv3r510n@lemmy.world 3 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago)

If the transphobes thought trans men were men then your comment would be accurate. But they just see them as confused women and easy to just ignore them like they ignore cis women.

(You are right about trans women bearing the brunt of the hate, and I think so much of that is sexual panic from cishet men about finding a penis owner attractive)

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[–] paddirn@lemmy.world 23 points 8 hours ago

They’re an easy minority to scapegoat. In the US they make up between 0.5% and 1.6% of the population. A sizable portion of straight people associate being transgender as something sick and weird and a sexual deviancy, so it’s easy to target them and to try to associate them with actual objectively bad things (ie pedophilia). They’re just people trying to find their place in the world and live their lives, same as most of us.

[–] CoffeeJunkie@lemmy.cafe 0 points 4 hours ago (2 children)

As others have said, one did shoot up a school (and the MSM hid the manifesto & details forever). As your comment proves, they found out the shooter was trans & they tried to memory-hole that real hard. But that's besides the point; evil & depraved people will be evil & depraved people. Doesn't matter, trans or not.

Main conservative talking points against trans people: They do not produce children, trans people are categorized as having a mental illness that should be treated instead of chopping off body parts, they really don't like when health insurance money and/or tax dollars pay for elective surgery & treatments, fully transitioned people have their genitals mutilated & they'll never experience an orgasm, once they're chopped up a not insignificant number of trans people experience regret (permanent consequences for acting on temporary feelings), and trans people are more likely than the general population to have depression & commit suicide.

With well-intentioned conservatives, it's actually coming from place of care & compassion. They don't want people to hurt themselves, deprive them of families & fullness of sexuality, or see them despair post-op & kill themselves.

[–] VerticaGG@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 1 hour ago

Idk why OP feels it neccesary to conflate trans people with school shooters.

Three components im enthusiastic to educate about on that note:

  1. https://www.politifact.com/article/2023/mar/31/no-evidence-growing-trend-trans-radicalization-or/l

And 2) Shooters have been overwhelmingly men, overwhelmingly white, overwhelmingly boys-and-men. A majority of manifestos have direct mention of Right-wing extremism, oft inspired by the Turner Diaries and the like.

  1. What causes violent crime in society, and are there existing societies we can look to?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/jp3q4p/comment/gbesw1p/

the short version is that it starts in the home.

Much violent crime can be traced back to cultural factors. Violent crime, such as murder, would probably decrease dramatically in an anarchist society because most of its causes — poverty, televised glorification of violence, prisons and police, warfare, sexism, and the normalization of individualistic and anti-social behaviors — would disappear or decrease.

The differences between two Zapotec communities illustrates that peace is a choice. The Zapotec are a sedentary agrarian indigenous nation living on land that is now claimed by the state of Mexico. One Zapotec community, La Paz, has a yearly homicide rate of 3.4/100,000. A neighboring Zapotec community has the much higher homicide rate of 18.1/100,000. What social attributes go along with the more peaceful way of life? Unlike their more violent neighbors, the La Paz Zapotec do not beat children; accordingly, children see less violence and use less violence in their play. Similarly, wife-beating is rare and not considered acceptable; women are considered equal to men, and enjoy an autonomous economic activity that is important to the life of the community so they are not dependent on men. Regarding child-rearing, the implications of this particular comparison are corroborated by at least one cross-cultural study on socialization, which found that warm, affectionate socialization techniques correlate with low levels of conflict in society.

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-gelderloos-anarchy-works

As for the re-emergence of hierarchies, I think that the notion of anarchism is essentially 'checks and balances' turned up to 11. You get to a society that's an ecosystem of fluid social relationships, and an anti-authoritarian culture which makes it impossible in a million ways for anyone to accumulate power. If we could get there, I think it would be more robust than current liberal democracy, where the branches of government can cooperate and you need buy-in from less people to enable power to be accumulated.

IMO, good anarchist praxis is to 1) encourage and popularize anti-authoritarian parenting methods and 2) build strong community groups and mutual aid networks.

I concur with this analysis and conclusion.

[–] VerticaGG@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

Chopped off, mutilated, never enjoy life again.

Lmao tell me you're a bigot who's never met a trans person, without saying so.

Thats not how any of this works.

  • Surgery is almost always for adults, does not work by "chopping" anything. It is a delicate and complex medical and surgical procedure. (You're fine with the mutilation of intersex infants genitals and the mutilation that is circumcision being forced on infants, tho, I bet, as your Daddy says that's ok, huh?)

  • Quite the opposite from never enjoying carnal-consensual-interactions again, I and many of my trans cousins are simply listening to our bodies tell us that it needs to change to properly experience it. For most, it takes the form of revulsion-from-the-incongruence of having been born with parts that make them want to dissociate.

BEING A TRANS PERSON IS NOT A MENTAL ILLNESS

This is such victim blaming. It is impossible to go through a world that seems like it wants to drink your blood, just because of your intrinsic traits -- without accruing trauma.

Trauma and being open about it is not "mental illness". In fact, it's the only way to heal from that externally-caused burden.

I guarantee you're not an expert on the well being of the meeting of the mind and the brain, or "mental illness" to take the thinking of ableist, nazi-originated, antiquated past-medical-thought.

And you're certainly no expert on anyone else's body.

So dont be surprised when this kind of thinking turns you into someone that people dont want to be around.

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