this post was submitted on 29 May 2025

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243

[Serious] Jews of Lemmy, what are your family conversations about the war like? (sh.itjust.works)

submitted 1 week ago by underline960@sh.itjust.works to c/asklemmy@lemmy.world

79 comments fedilink hide all child comments

I've had multiple family members deployed to active warzones.

Whenever we talked about war, it was never about politics. It was always "X's tour is supposed to finish next month," or "I heard something happened near [town], wasn't X deployed near there?"

I know how everyone talks about it on the internet, but what is it like for you at home?

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[–] kittenzrulz123@lemmy.blahaj.zone 22 points 5 days ago

My family overwhelmingly supports the genocide and the Israeli government. My father even thinks they arent going far enough and my mother just wants it to look pretty. The majority of Jewish people (especially religious people) see not only Palestinians but all muslims as lesser people.

Im not intrested in hearing "not all Jews" like its supposed to make me feel better because it doesn't. It just whitewashes real issues and fundamental problems with the Jewish community. The simple fact that Zionists control Jewish education and own most Jewish institutions, and they use it to spread hate.

[–] Mustakrakish@lemmy.world 32 points 6 days ago

Its a genocide, not a war

[–] Jollyllama@lemmy.world 25 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I know my family are raging Zionist so I don't even bring it up.

[–] Mubelotix@jlai.lu 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

How did you manage to differ?

[–] Jollyllama@lemmy.world 26 points 6 days ago

🤷 The woke mind virus got me.

I think it comes down to exposing myself to other people and their perspectives. As a teen I was as racist as any Zionist. Once I moved away from home and met people from outside of my insulated Zionist/Jewish community I started hearing other perspectives. This led me to take a serious look at Zionism and the state of Israel including how they operate to maintain apartheid. I didn't like what I saw, I tend to be an empathetic person so it really hurt to see my people and culture I identified with take part in these Injustices.

What followed was years of deprogramming and the painful process of coming to terms with the fact that Israel were the bad guys in this scenario. I grew up in the West Bank on a settlement so the roots went deep and they were painful to RIP out. A great eye opening book I read was "A Day In The Life Of Abed Salama". It really helped connect the puzzle pieces and pull down the propaganda curtain that I experienced growing up in a Jewish settlement.

Also my parents were born in the 60s so probably lead poisoning right?

[–] Tedesche@lemmy.world 8 points 5 days ago (2 children)

I’m an American atheist Jew, and I’ve had conversations with my (converted) mother about it. She’s pretty solidly on Israel’s side, but she’s also not very educated about the conflict. She just kinda goes by the mainstream media’s narrative and doesn’t think too much beyond that. When I present her with information, she’s horrified and agrees with me that “Israel is going too far,” but it never results in her thinking the U.S. should stop sending them money. She hates Netanyahu and his conservative government, but she’s very hung up on Hamas being a terrorist organization. And I suppose I am too, to be honest. I want a free Palestine and for the Israeli settlers to be expelled, but I don’t want to support Hamas and I think they should pretty much be eradicated. I’m just much more willing to condemn Israel for their actions than she is; she’s very caught on the idea that Israel has a right to defend itself from Palestinian terrorism, and has a hard time seeing that it’s gone way past that at this point.

[–] ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works 12 points 5 days ago

Hamas being a terrorist organization.

For what it is worth the Warsaw Uprising and the Yugoslavian Partizans were also terrorist uprisings against their legal governments that were committing a (technically legal) Holocaust.

[+] MangioneDontMiss@lemm.ee -7 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (8 children)

I'm going to give an honest answer, but i fully expect to be downvoted and demonized for doing so. Nothing I can do about that, but op, you want an honest answer, this is it. I'll also add that I would 100% consider myself leftist, in fact, extremely leftist in most of my views. Why the hell would my username be what it is and why the hell would I be on lemmy if I wasn't... anyway... here's the answer since you asked for it:

The large majority of jews I know, including myself and my family feel like this current war is the fault of Hamas. Oct 7 doesn't happen, this war doesn't happen. We also are continually annoyed by the fact that most people on the left, constantly refuse to acknowledge that Hamas has been pushing this war forward non-stop for decades. All you have to do is look up number of missiles launched at Israel since 2000 to see that. People no-doubt try to rebut this by saying "but Israel has been stealing territory". My constant response to that is they have been taking territory to establish buffer zones to enhance security. As almost all of this land has been taken after conflict. Israel even tried to give back some of this land, but was then attacked again, and had to take land back in order to protect itself -- But eventually our conversation just goes back to why this is even happening and we are always frustrated by the fact that any argument from the left condemning Zionists always begins in 1948 -- when in fact the troubles of the region started hundreds of years before that. This pre-1948 history seems to never be brought up however. So the blame is always cast 100% on jews and all of the attacks on Jewish civilians within Israel are never ever given the time of day.

It's incredibly frustrating and scary, because the narrative is fully turning into "jews are evil", and there is nothing any Jewish person can do about it. Jews are never going to willingly leave Israel and Hamas is never going to stop trying to eradicate jews. There are only 16ish million jews on the planet and almost 2 billion Muslims. There is no way jews could ever win this propaganda war. I think a lot of jews who feel they are on the left side of the political spectrum are too scared to even speak about their feelings on Israel/Palestine at the moment, because they know they are going to be vastly outnumbered and demonized, by those they would usually consider friends, with anything they say. So most of us are silent on the subject because we don't want to be ostracized.

I will end this by saying, we of course feel bad for civilians caught in the crossfire, but we feel like Jewish civilians are not given that same respect. The sentiment we get is that Jewish civilians seem to deserve it.

[–] SinAdjetivos@lemmy.world 25 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I appreciate the honesty but you seem to be missing the perspective that:

The existence of the State of Israel is an explicit British colonization project and currently exists as a puppet state of "the empire".
The power imbalance between the state of Israel and Hamas and the repeated, and well documented, war crimes and ethnic cleansing perpetrated by the State of Israel.
Left wing vs Right wing is a false dichotomy. You will have opinions and viewpoints of both matter your political self identification and they are poorly defined.

I would be curious to know your opinions about the judenrätes of WWII (whether they were heroes or villains, left wing vs right wing, etc.) and how the current State of Israel is not just a continuation of that?

[–] MangioneDontMiss@lemm.ee -5 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

Jewish re-colonization began long before the british had any input on the subject. The British were actually trying to stop Jewish migration for a while there. But the re-colonization of Israel by Jews goes back at least as far as the 1200s.
There have been war crimes on both sides, and they both need be acknowledged in order to have a good faith conversation. Fact of the matter is that hamas is completely indiscriminate in their targets. There have been more than a few cases of Israeli civilian hostages being flat out raped and / or murdered by their captives during this war. I know of at least 2 instances where israeli hostages were actually killed by doctors.

I don't know enough about the Judenrates to give an opinion on the subject. It looks like an interesting topic though, so I will read up on it.

edit: on my brief reading abotu Judenrates during wwii i get the distinct impression that these were people thrust into leadership positions that they may or may have not have wanted. They were used by the Nazis to potentially make impossible choices that hurt their fellow community members, but they had to make these choices or else their community would have suffered even more harm. They had to make "lesser of the evils" choices. I imagine these choices often made their community members dislike them, whether or not the Judenrates were making these choices with intention of doing the best they could for their people.

I'm curious where you find a connection between these WWII Judenrates and present day Israel?

[–] SinAdjetivos@lemmy.world 11 points 6 days ago (1 children)

the re-colonization of Israel by Jews goes back at least as far as the 1200s.

Immigration is not the same as colonization. When immigrating to a location (even mass migration) the power dynamics do not allow for the migrating group to dominate the local group. Colonization is when that power dynamic is flipped.

There have been war crimes on both sides, and they both need be acknowledged

Again power dynamics and scale are the most important factor here. If someone punches you that does not give you the right to murder their whole family. If someone peacefully barged their way into your home and you to leave what would your response be?

They were used by the Nazis to potentially make impossible choices that hurt their fellow community members, but they had to make these choices or else their community would have suffered even more harm

Yes, but why did Nazi Germany form them? What was their purpose in the machine?

I'm curious where you find a connection between these WWII Judenrates

I think it would be more productive for you to do a bit of reading and come back with what you think I'm getting at. I think answering that now would color the perception and make it harder to learn about a very important political concept.

[+] MangioneDontMiss@lemm.ee -8 points 6 days ago (3 children)

we could have a big argument on the power dynamics you're talking about, and I don't really want to, but I will note the slew of pogroms in the middle east and ask you read about why the Bar Giora was formed. This was not a one sided affair.

and you talk about murdering whole families as if that wasn't the intent of pogroms. Again, both perspectives need to be taken into account.

as for the stuff about the Judenrates, I don't really want to play games with you. Tell me what your point is or drop it.

[–] rumimevlevi@lemmings.world 7 points 6 days ago

There is zero big argument about power dynamic, Israel could easily reoccupy all territories if Hamas do not stop launching rockets after ending colonization

It so easy to go back to history and cherry pick violence from any side . For example Jewish kingdom did force conversion to Judaism and destroy villages , no jew should be hated for events like that just like Palestinians has no culpability in war happen in pogroms made by Arabs and even Christians .

Despite the mufti effort, most Arab sided with allies and not the Nazi Germany. 13k Palestinians volunteered to fight . There was Yemeni jews that migrated to Palestine and Palestinians and them was visiting each other festivities . During the Reconquista it was the ottoman and African speaking Arabic countries who accepted jews to the land they control

I don't justify violence but there was violence because Palestinians started to realize Zionists intention to force a state on local people . During the violence there was also other Arabs protecting the jews. Like in Hebron massacres over 400 jews was saved by their Arab neighbors.

Once the state of Israel was created they could have lived in it but instead decided in 67 to occupy Gaza and west bank and started building settlements making a two state solution impossible

after the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine - Ben Gurion

The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.” - Menachem Begin

[–] SinAdjetivos@lemmy.world 3 points 6 days ago

I will note the slew of pogroms in the middle east and ask you read about why the Bar Giora was formed.

I understand that you are trying to draw a direct line from the modern IDF to a historic Jewish Resistance Movement. However, I would argue that it was coopted by foreign powers and abandoned it's goal of an independent jewish state after it's transformation into the Haganah and transitioned from a defensive force (largely support) to a colonizing force (don't support).

I do not support the Ottoman empire in its persecution of religious minorities. However, I do not see how your logic and worldview wouldn't support the Ottomans in persecuting the Jewish people at the time due to their militant tactics. What perspective am I missing?

Tell me what your point is or drop it.

The point is controlled opposition, perverse incentives, and the power/danger of "sell outs".

[–] stringere@sh.itjust.works 3 points 6 days ago (1 children)

and you talk about murdering whole families as if that wasn’t the intent of pogroms

Guess I missed the Palestinian pogroms which justified Israel's genocidal war on the Palestinian people.

[–] SinAdjetivos@lemmy.world 1 points 6 days ago

The time period they are referencing (old history at this point...) the Ottoman empire was in control of the area and it operated as something of an apartheid state. Pogroms, persecution and oppression absolutely happened. However it was mostly a new import from western Europe. Jewish citizens were second class but they were still "people of the book" and fared much better for most of the empire's history.

However, understanding a bit more history there is a direct through line from those historical wrongs and the modern Palestinian genocide. It is just a continuation of the Spanish, Portuguese and British (amongst others) campaign against ethnicly semetic peoples that the Jewish people also historically fell victim to.

[–] rumimevlevi@lemmings.world 11 points 6 days ago

Every time Hamas launched rockets, it was in response to Israel expelling more Palestinians from the West Bank and to increased violence by settlers.

Please please oppose and put pressure on Israel occupation so atrocities end on both side

[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 12 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Yeah, I see where you're coming from. I mean, I'm also 100% a leftist, I'm extremely left on most issues, but I also just don't get why so many people are opposed to this one particular state.

I mean, people always talk about the whole conflict with Germany starting in 1939, but you really have to consider that those wars happened because they were reclaiming territory like the Danzig Corridor that belonged to them historically. They even tried giving territory back to France by setting up the Vichy Republic. And it was the communists and partisans going around trying to stir up a class war who really started things, we had to put them in camps for the sake of security. And I feel bad for any innocent people caught up in it, but it just feels like nobody extends the same concerns to the German civilians the government is trying to protect. At the end of the day, if the Reichstag Fire hadn't happened, none of this would be happening.

Oh! My mistake, it seems I mixed up the names of some countries and events there. You're totally right though, if those people didn't want to get massacred and starved, they shouldn't have tried to resist your political project and/or had homes in places you wanted to forcibly seize. You know, this is just like what I'm always saying, "It's your own fault you got slapped, because you shouldn't have resisted." I mean, that's what leftism is all about, amirite?

[–] PyroNeurosis@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I appreciate your forthrightness, and on many points we quite agree, notably noone's keen to leave and that the current charged atmosphere around the war does chill honest representation of one's ideals.

That said, while this particular war was the result of Hamas and their October 7 attack, I believe that if not them, some other group would "lead the charge" maybe it would have been more of a single flashpoint or a series of smaller skirmishes, but conflict was (and continues to be) inevitable under the circumstances that Palestinians and Israelis live in.

I want to inquire further on your take that Israeli buffer zones are the land theft so demonized by the anti-Zionists. We see the expansion of the buffer zone in Syria as a landgrab because any security buffer sufficient for defense against the Assad regime should be more than enough, especially when paired with Israeli strikes on weapons caches and bases in Syria. The more puzzling point, though, is the establishment of new settlements and growth of existing settlements in the West Bank even as recently as this week.

[–] MangioneDontMiss@lemm.ee -2 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (3 children)

I cannot defend the establishment of new settlements in taken territories. All I can say is palastine has had plenty of chances to maintain and keep their territories. Like I've said, Israel even tried to hand back large amounts of land, but that was jut followed by palistinian attack. Over and over again Hamas has decided that peace is not the way forward. I don't believe this is the fault of the average Palistinian though. I believe this is the fault of the palistinian leadership which uses these wars like a piggy bank. Robbing their people of billions in aid money while living in luxury in Quatar and other arab states. They're not waging these wars because they think they can win. They are doing it because they think they can profit. And I strongly believe, hell, I know, that Russia had a huge hand in pushing Hamas toward Oct 7 in order to distrac the west from Ukraine. If we're being honest, its was an absolutely masterful move by Putiin because, it 1. distracted from Ukraine and 2. split liberal voters in the west. And I think this really needs to be acknowledged a lot more than it is.

I'll say this though. I do not believe a two state solution is realistic or possible. The hatred of palistinians toward jews is just too systemically ingrained and indoctrinated. This system of indoctrination of Palistinian youth needs to be completely dismantled for there to be a lasting peace. And I don't think that will ever happen while a seperate (from Israel) Palastine exists. I think Israel knows this well, and what we're seeing now is Israel trying to unite the two lands through force. They are trying to end the war for good. Israel and Palestine need to be one nation. And arabs and Israelis need to learn to live in peace. It is the only sustainable path forward.

[–] stringere@sh.itjust.works 8 points 6 days ago

Why did Palestinians start hating Jews?
What did Israel do to help resolve that conflict?
Which side has disproportionately taken casualties throughout the history of the nation?
Which side has a military doctrine which allows for nuking any invading force?

I think #1 is probably a good starting point to come to grips with the reasons for the Palestinian people fighting, literally, for survival.

[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 6 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

Hey, I agree with you, a two state solution isn't viable (albeit for the opposite reason, that Isreal is a beligerant, expansionist, genocidal state that should not exist). Now, as a "leftist," I'm sure that you'd agree that, if everyone's going to be part of the same state, then of course everyone should have equal rights, including voting rights, correct? You want every Palestinian to have the same voice in government that Israeli citizens do, right?

Or is it that when you call for a one state solution, what you mean is that you want to continue denying them rights within your own state while also preventing them from having their own state? To seize their territory and then have them remain as second class citizens who are denied fundamental human rights? For your race to reign dominant over others?

You don't need to answer, I think we all know the answer to that question, fascist.

[–] rumimevlevi@lemmings.world 2 points 6 days ago

Not even Israel really believe the deals was great deal to Palestinians. Israel should give back all occupied land expect Israel it self of course unconditionally

Camp David was not the missed opportunity for the Palestinians, and if I were a Palestinian I would have rejected Camp David, as well. - Shlomo ben ami

The hatred of Palestinians toward jews is just too systemically ingrained and indoctrinated

This is exactly the same excuse people was saying to justify maintaining the apartheid in south Africa. They claimed that black people would get vengeance on white people . There is many example of successful reconciliations between countries , population and groups in civil wars

[–] Kinperor@lemmy.ca 4 points 6 days ago

It’s incredibly frustrating and scary, because the narrative is fully turning into “jews are evil”, and there is nothing any Jewish person can do about it.

If it's any kind of comfort to you, I got radicalized against Zionism by jews. A lot of jewish observers are fighting to free Palestine.

I did hear some palestinian or muslim speak out against Israel's inhuman apartheid state, but jews have been making the best case I've heard for freeing palestine.

[+] dumbpotato@lemmy.cafe 4 points 6 days ago (2 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] bitwize01@reddthat.com 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Can you elaborate on how 9/11 was the fault of the Jewish occupation? It seems like your claim is "Terrorists were striking back in response to a series of aggressions dating back to 1948/even earlier Jewish transgressions" then I don't buy it. Islamic eschatology is the reason for 9/11, combined with classic power struggles and posturing within that subculture.

I do agree that the settler movement and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is why Oct. 7th happened tho, 100%. Hamas is a terror organization fueled by Israel's racist, ethnic cleansing movement. That dynamic is never going to be solved until Israel completes its inevitable genocide of the Palestinian people.

[–] MangioneDontMiss@lemm.ee -5 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

see. i don't even try to talk to people like you, because the bias is so thoroughly obvious that I know I will never have a rational conversation with someone like you.

anyone who think jews simply existing in israel is reason enough for hamas to invade and indescriminately start slaughtering civilians can go eat a bag of dicks.

and did this guy just blame my ancestors for 9/11?!?

Blocked.

[–] IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 2 points 6 days ago

The Zionist cries in pain as they strike you

[–] BertramDitore@lemm.ee 176 points 1 week ago (4 children)

My family still has pretty significant generational trauma from surviving the Holocaust, so the genocide going on in Palestine is quite black and white for us. It’s wrong, Israel’s behavior is monstrous and immoral, and it needs to stop. The Palestinians never deserved this. We talk about it constantly.

Your question kinda implies that we all must have family deployed in a war zone though (unless I misunderstood), and that’s not the case. I’m American. I do have some Israeli relatives who I won’t ever speak to again because they support the genocide, but they’ve all aged out of the army.

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[–] oakey66@lemmy.world 104 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (9 children)

My family agrees that Israel learned nothing from the fascism that their families escaped and fought against and believes Israel is committed to nazism against Arabs. But my ex’s family is the typical liberal Zionist family that attributes all of this at the feet of hamas and Netanyahu. It’s a form of delusion that prevents any dialogue about the subject. They read passages from the Passover Seder with absolutely zero connecting of the dots to the horrors the state of Israel is committing against a helpless population. It completely makes clear to me how Hitler came into power and it makes me sad.

Fixed spelling error.

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