this post was submitted on 22 Nov 2023
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We're roughly 15 games into the season, which is far too early to drawn any conclusions or write overly long posts about. That said, that's never stopped reddit before.

So with that mindset in mind, let's take a look at some potential concerns and assess the threat level for each.


Cade Cunningham is not the guy

The Detroit Pistons drafted Oklahoma State's Cade Cunningham at # 1 (over Jalen Green and Evan Mobley) partly because he projected as a safe, low-floor future star. How could this kid fail? He had the passing and shooting skills of a point guard in the body of a thicker wing. Better yet, he had A+ intangibles and leadership capabilities. Surely, he'd be the team's next Grant Hill.

Unfortunately, Cunningham hasn't reached that level yet. The raw numbers are there -- 21.7 points, 7.3 assists -- but the scoring efficiency continues to lag in Year 3. At the moment, Cunningham's shooting 32.2% from 3. It's not much different than his career averages (31.1% from 3 in 91 games). It's especially odd because Cunningham is such a great free-throw shooter (85% in both college and the pros) that you'd think these numbers would bump back up eventually.

But what's more concerning is that Cunningham hasn't been able to convert efficiently inside the arc either -- hitting just 44.1% of his twos. The one knock on him during the draft process was that he had mediocre athleticism by NBA standards -- and that's born out with some struggles to separate. He's no blazer like Tyreek Hill -- he'll need to get physical and win 50/50 balls like DeAndre Hopkins. Getting to the line even more often will help, especially because he's so good at converting there. No one's quite Luka Doncic, but Cunningham may have to emulate his wily game as best as he can.

If he can't, can Cunningham be the "star" of a winning franchise? It's in question now, and our reading suggests that the panic meter is set to 3.5 (out of 10).

The fear that Cunningham will never be an All-Star is legitimate. The fear that he'll never be a # 1 is legitimate. However, the silver lining is that he's still a malleable player for your roster given his size. Perhaps his true fate will be being a good and versatile second banana. That's no insult; even Paul George recently said he's been better in that role himself. Of course, if that's true, the Pistons will need to hit a home run in the draft sooner than later.


Chicago's window has closed

The Chicago Bulls have a veteran team -- led by DeMar DeRozan (age 34), Zach LaVine (28), and Nikola Vucevic (33). It feels like a lifetime ago, but this is the same core that was actually the # 1 seed in the East for a brief stretch in 2021-22 and made the playoffs. Since then, they've gone 40-42 last season and sit at 5-10 so far this year.

Has the "window" closed? Was it even a "window" in the first place? If so, it may have been one of those fake windows painted on the side of a rock to trick Wile E. Coyote. GM Arturas Karsinovas and Billy Donovan ran straight into it anyway.

Our alarms are blaring here, with a panic meter: 8.5 (out of 10). Simply put, there's no realistic argument to keep this core together anymore. There's no help on the horizon. Lonzo Ball isn't coming back, and Patrick Williams isn't breaking out. Their effort and defense (# 5 last year) has also waned (to # 19 this year). This is a team that desperately needs to blow it up and add an infusion of energy and young talent via the draft. The only silver lining here is that they actually own their pick this time around (after giving up last year's to Orlando).


Klay Thompson is cooked

Golden State star Klay Thompson is only 33 years old, but in pro athlete terms, he's even more worn and torn than that after significant knee and Achilles injuries. After a strong 2022-23, Thompson has started to show that decline -- hitting just 34.3% from deep and playing stiffly on defense. His box plus/minus (measuring impact per 100 possessions) is a depressing -3.1, by far the lowest of his career.

The shooting numbers are less of an issue -- those can ebb and flow over weeks and months. I wouldn't be surprised if Thompson gets hot and shoots 40% from three next month. However, the defensive issues are a significant concern, particularly when the playoffs roll around. If Thompson and Andrew Wiggins aren't playing well, it's hard to see the Warriors making a deep run. For that reason, we'll give this a panic meter: 5.5 (out of 10). This is an expensive, "win now" roster that may not be capable of beating the top teams anymore.

There's also some concern about the future. Klay Thompson is an expiring contract and a free agent this summer. If he expects to get paid like an All-Star, that's a major problem. If he understands his current value (like a rich man's Eric Gordon) then maybe the Warriors can retain him on a reasonable deal.


Scoot Henderson is a bust

Many people expected Scoot Henderson to be a smart pick for "Rookie of the Year." Fellow rookies Victor Wembanyama and Chet Holmgren are built like bean poles, while Henderson came equipped with the body of a prime Russell Westbrook. Better still, he'd have a starring role with Portland after the team traded away Damian Lillard. All signs pointed to a potential 20 PPG+ season.

Unfortunately, Henderson hasn't hit the ground running -- he's stumbled out of the starting block. In his 5 games (key word: only 5 games), he shot a woeful 34.6% from the field, including 9.5% from beyond the arc (2 for 21 total). More concerning still, he's averaged nearly as many turnovers (4.0) and fouls (4.0) as he did assists (4.6).

Obviously, judging a 19 year old based on 5 games would be ridiculous, so we're labeling this panic meter: 2 (out of 10).

One longer-term trend that I would be more concerned about is the effectiveness of the "G-League" path to the NBA. In theory, it makes all the sense in the world that prospects who go through the G-League -- with pro coaching and pro trainers and pro competition -- would be further along than their peers. That hasn't been the case so far. The G-Leaguers haven't looked ahead of the curve yet, with Henderson as a recent (small sample size) example. After two years in their program, he should have been further along than this. The same is true for almost all of the G-League Ignite alumni, which should have the NBA thinking long and hard about how to maximize that pathway.


Gregg Popovich is over the hill

Scoot Henderson's fellow rookie Victor Wembanyama has played well based on any reasonable expectations and remains the favorite for "Rookie of the Year" (although Chet Holmgren would deserve it right now). Wembanyama will have some growing pains here and there, but there's little doubt that he's still an Uber-prospect and future superstar.

But is it fair to question the support staff around Wenbanyama? Is it sacrilegious to doubt future Hall of Famer Gregg Popovich? I don't think so. If Bill Belichick may get fired in New England, we can at least give Popovich some grief as well.

The most public gripe about Pop's coaching this year has been the experiment of "PG Jeremy Sochan". The idea that Sochan has the keys to the offense like Chris Paul may be overblown, but it's still strange to give so much responsibility to a kid who's a 6'9" wing and reluctant shooter. The spacing around Wembanyama has been poor, and caused him to be overpressured and turnover-prone (Victor is averaging 3.6 turnovers per game).

The concern about the Spurs' spacing is not a new phenomenon. The team seemingly perfected the "beautiful game" with a title in 2014, but ever since then, Popovich has fallen back on his old-school offensive habits. In fact, the Spurs have ranked in the bottom 10 for three-point attempts for the past 9 seasons (seriously). For that reason, I'm listing this higher than expected with a panic meter: 4 (out of 10).

Perhaps Popovich is just being overly patient with this roster -- knowing Wembanyama is 2-3 years away from his final form. Perhaps drafting a stud playmaker will make all these problems go away. Still, it's fair to wonder about the long-term future of the franchise and whether they should be grooming a more modern replacement, beit Becky Hammon (who won a WNBA title with a three-point happy team) or someone else.

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[–] HiddenNinja631@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

We had a window??

[–] StefonDiggsHS@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

yea we gonna need a much larger sample size out of scoot. hes been hurt

[–] Carcrusher3@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Scoot has played 4.5 games lol. What is this.

[–] durablewaffle@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Toronto needs to blow it up asap

[–] thereticent@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Fun read. Thanks. Just a small correction that Cade was definitely a high-floor prospect. Also, the term being thrown around is "Point Sochan" which is a much catchier name for the experiment

[–] jtruth9@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

For Klay, it's not necessarily the shooting but he shot selection. He has to dial back the "tough shots". He's not able to hit those as well as he user to. If he had a more balanced shot diet, it would considerably increase his impact.

For his defense, his on ball is still decent when not chasing small quick guards. He holds up well against wings. His bigger issue is his off-ball defense. One of the best kept secrets during the golden years is that Klay's off ball D was always horrible. He just made up for it elsewhere. Now he doesn't have the same impact and that off ball D is a bigger detriment.

Klay is going to heat up eventually so that will cure some of the issue with him. But there are areas of improvement that don't rely on athleticism or even shot making that are needed from him.

[–] CruffTheMagicDragon@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Season is almost 20% completely. How is it “far too early” to make some conclusions?

[–] epoch_fail@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

ever since then, Popovich has fallen back on his old-school offensive habits. In fact, the Spurs have ranked in the bottom 10 for three-point attempts for the past 9 seasons (seriously).

The team is full of bad shooters. Outside of Devin Vassell (who's on fire this season but injured right now), Keldon Johnson, and Cedi Osman, all the last two of whom are average at best, the rest of the top 8 in minutes are bad 3 point shooters on their career: Wemby, Zach Collins, Sochan, Branham, Tre Jones.

We knew Wemby's 3 was going to be shaky and he's a rookie, while Collins is a big, so both can be absolved. However, Sochan, Branham, and Tre Jones really make lineups difficult. There's hope since Branham and Jones are great FT shooters, but it hasn't materialized yet.

Sure, they're losing whether they shoot 3's or not, but they also just don't have the personnel to be an effective offense at the moment.

[–] thesog@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Chicago should be a 10/10. The window is closed. They need to trade “the 3 betas” and Caruso for picks. Then I guess give Patrick Williams a ton of touches to see if he can develop into a good player.

[–] Scelidotheriidae@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Cade isn’t a bust necessarily, unless he keeps being typecast into a primary star role, but he doesn’t really have any flaws that weren’t clearly apparent in college. I do think playing him with Ivey more might help him, just to get a quicker ballhandler near him. Cade is just not very shifty or good at creating space and so getting good shots is tough for him and so any shooting slump will really hurt. Even in college, he often couldn’t get to rim and threw up bad floaters and got blocked a lot.

Also, I feel like Scoot was super overhyped. Way too early to judge, but people fixed their opinion on him way too early, when he just matured physically way sooner than the competition. Remains to be seen how athletically dominant he looks when he faces other people with grown man strength and he isn’t that special of a shooter, passer, or defender to be a star if he isn’t physically dominant.

[–] DrJayDubs@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Project 6'9" is GGs

[–] DropItShock@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

I'm on board with all of yours except for the last one about the Spurs.

From everything that I understand about this team, it is not built to win. The point is not to try to put together a winning team right now, the point is to try different things, and figure out what's working and what doesn't. Losing games can be demoralizing, but I don't think they're out of their tanking phase yet. So labeling them anywhere on the panic meter feels a little bit strange.

[–] Hovi_Bryant@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Gregg Popovich being over the hill is such a shitty take. The lamest take in general is the idea of a coach being poor at their job because a team isn't winning.

I don't know if it's whether fans are disillusioned with how high they think of the players or they believe a coach can polish a turd. Maybe both.

Pistons fans believe Monty Williams, Stan Van Gundy, and Dwayne Casey are bad coaches. No, just the talent wasn't there. Coaches raise a team's ceiling. Only players themselves can raise the floor.

Anyways, the issue with Cade is that he's overthinking instead of making quicker decisions. He's giving defenses way too much time, and this is why iso-ball is just not the way. Detroit's most effective play type are basket cuts. And that's likely due to the offensive scheme they're running that emphasizes making quick decisions.

I'll assume he'll figure it out and is nothing to worry about.

I'm calling cap on the first and last items on the list.

[–] jaeke@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Current hall of famer Greg Popovich to you sir

[–] 22797@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

I think the warriors problems is that they have a bunch of ‘good’ players but not enough ‘great’ players right now. Steph is still Steph but he doesn’t have one person who’s playing at an all star level, not even close. However the team’s depth is very good. Once GP2 and Draymond get back, there’s is going to be at least one quality rotation player who won’t play.

This is a very unique problem for the Warriors, they’ve been playing well during the non-Steph minutes (net rating of +2.9 when he’s off), but not nearly as good in the Steph minutes (-.8) as they have in the past.

[–] ducksonaroof@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

i'm not panicking as a Bulls fan. i will if we don't trade LaVine and re-sign DeRozan.

at least our pick is top 10 protected

I don’t get all of the focus on “PG Sochan” when the biggest issue for the Spurs is that their defense is “are these guys even being coached” levels of bad. They are the worst defensive team by an order of magnitude. Tune into any random Spurs defensive possession and you are more than likely to see one on ball defender getting cooked while the other 4 guys stand with a foot in the lane staring blankly at the basketball

[–] dentedpat@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Way too early on Scoot, I don't buy skepticism about Pop, but the rest is right. The Bulls are bad and are hopefully just waiting until Dec. 15th so that more trades open up and they can move Lavine, DeRozan, and Caruso (and Vooch if anybody wants him at his age and price). Cade's struggles fit with the scouting report on him coming out of college so I buy its a real issue. Klay looks done and it makes sense after those injuries and missed time.

[–] XXX_DILFLORD_XXX@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Just wanted to say that this was a great read, definitely keep posting.

[–] Boomhauer_007@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Not only is Chicago’s window closed but all of their assets are basically at their lowest value they’ve ever been besides Caruso, who isn’t commanding a haul. Lavine is on an awful contract, Derozan’s game is just too limited, Vuc is a big slow guy that can’t play defense. Bulls are giga fucked

Toronto I beg of you explore trade offers for Siakam. He’s not a bad player but he just doesn’t make sense on the current roster and unlike the bulls players Siakam can slot in on a bunch of teams; he won’t get a haul but he’s a decent piece that should get some picks for a team that basically has none right now

[–] human1023@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Pop isn't going anywhere. He has tenure

[–] DistributionNo9968@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago
  • Dame has made Milwaukee worse
  • GSW’s window is closed
[–] HomicidalRex@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Ill add an overreaction: The Clippers aren't title contenders.

They aren't because of injury concerns, but we just seen the defending champs lose their number 2 dude, again. Harden can't be consistent in the playoffs? Why would he need to be when he can let Kwahi and PG carry the load from game to game and then a drop 40 in 2 games in a series. The Clippers are going to suffer on defense with Westbrook and Harden, but right now they have an above average defense. They can still make another trade (Norman powell or flip Tucker) before the deadline and once the buyout session starts they could grab another Big to help Zubac.

[–] ShutterBug545@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

I’d say the one about Cade isn’t justified, the FO hasn’t built a proper roster around him to utilize his talents and the coaching staff haven’t helped

[–] ndtp124@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Grizzlies are in a lot of trouble. A poor shooting team that ideally plays a 3 guard 2 big lineup isn't scaring the nuggets.

[–] tarunpopo@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Cade will be fine, is he the number one guy? He can get there but the main thing he needs to do is learn to foul bait like every other star and tweak some things in his game, not add an entirely new skill set.

But I'm telling you guys as a pistons fan, you guys see all the news stories about this team, I doubt a prime Micheal Jordan would be the the exact same player if he was on this team especially in the modern nba. It's been that bad. Injuries and roster construction have zapped this team of anything competent and it's not a coincidence cade struggled more when everything went to shit around him. Tell we what star is succeeding playing a starting lineup of killian hayes, Ausar Thompson and bagley around him.

Cade still has things to tweak and he isn't fully there but you shouldn't panic on him. You should panic at this garbage franchise that fails to support his development that he needs.

[–] OculusBlurr@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Should be worried about the Suns defense.

[–] Van-garde@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

I think a systemic overhaul of refereeing is almost in order. Feels like they’re making up rules as they go this year.

Particular instance would be when Draymond (curse his soul) was called for a foul in retrospect while they were reviewing a foul at the other end of the court.

[–] pork_buns_plz@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

I think the Warriors may need to look into trying something new this season if Klay doesn't come around.

Curry can score in any system, it's Draymond and Klay who need the motion offense to stay valuable. If Klay can't even do that this year, then they may need to look into either a trade (Zach Lavine?) or giving more minutes to / running different sets with Chris Paul, Kuminga, etc. that aren't necessarily the motion offense.

[–] tulaero23@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Isnt scoot injured for a while now? Also Pop with wemby and surrounded by those young players aint going nowhere right now even vassell has been injured which is probably their best player.

Detroit just needs some perimeter shooting who can open up the space. Also duren is injured with bojan bogdanovic.

Chicago is the most concerning one here. They have 3 high paying players and struggling.

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[–] Yellowperil123@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

That last Pop take is laughable. The dude is still really really sharp and seems to actually care about the team (unlike Doc in his last season).

What I see is patience, he realises that this season is NOT about winning but about development, testing theories with the luxury of time, and identifying talent to keep.

Nobody thinks that Sochan will be the go to PG in the future. BUT the idea of him as a secondary playmaker with his other skills is really enticing. Pop is using this season to give him as many reps as possible to see if Sochan can get there for the future. I think he knows that Wemby is a savant and can work at any time with a traditional PG so there's no need to play him with one as a starter.

This all helps the 2nd goal of this season which is to pick up another high draft pick. The Spurs are pretty poor talent wise on the court and another lottery pick would definitely help going forward.

[–] Ferromagneticfluid@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

I think you can't tell a darn about a player until he gets a decent team around him or the player is traded to a new team. Different players thrive in different situations. You can't expect Cade to be Kevin Durant in his 3rd year and to carry a bad team with bad culture.

[–] SoloBurger13@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

**Becky won 2 titles with the Aces who is decidedly not a 3 point happy team lol

[–] TheBottomLine_Aus@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Lmao calling scoot a busy now is genuinely dumb. Sure if we are here next year he's a busy. But dudes a fresh point guard. Lamelo and Ant both started off slow.

[–] Ok_Confusion_2154@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

*Becky Hammon who won back to back WNBA titles her first two years as a head coach in the league.

G league ignite narrative is dead. They were supposed to be more nba ready than college prospects, yet every one of them has been raw compared to their college peers (Kuminga and now Henderson are the most glaring examples)

[–] jumboponcho@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Chicago’s window was never open for a championship

[–] GunnerRocket@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Cade Panic Meter : 6 out of 10

Hiring his cousin to be his shooting coach or whatever is a personality concern. It's his 3rd year and Jalen/Mobley frankly have similar concerns. The difference is that they can still be serviceable offensive punches off the bench or defense anchors if they never reach stardom. Cade as an unathletic dude that can't shoot and turnover prone is pretty much worthless. It's his 3rd year though so not going to panic just yet. But my eyebrow is raised.

Klay Panic Meter : 10 out of 10

Klay doesn't have the offensive capacity to make up for his defensive issues. He's old and cooked. As are the Warriors. They dynasty is over. Enjoy the remaining Steph years Dubs fans. The titles are over.

Scoot Panic Meter: there is no panic meter lol

Pop Panic Meter: 7 out of 10

Like Klay. He just doesn't have it anymore. They need another coach.

Chicago Panic Meter: like worrying if your cousin who was retar...mentally disenfranchised and died two days ago is gonna make it.

[–] LoWE11053211@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Yes, cousin as the trainer is a big no no for me

You can financially support him…

But don’t hire him to do the most important job for a pro athlete!

[–] waconaty4eva@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Takes three years to really see what a pg will be. Takes someone like Magic to be great in year 1(thats the only example I can think of). A really great pg will start to get it second half of year 2.(CP3,Stockton). Mostly everyone else is 3+. Bad teams are farms for good teams future pgs.

[–] Middle-Welder3931@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

My panic meter for the Spurs is more 6/10, mainly because I worry Wemby is developing bad habits and becoming an inefficient chucker. Surely at least some coaching needs to happen as far as shot selection, not taking so many 3s, looking for easier shots closer to the basket. Just because he can hit those shots doesn't mean that should be his entire shot diet.

[–] Calyps0h@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Refs not enforcing the flopping rules!

[–] Murphytheweenie@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

I feel like the spurs are playing perfectly. They’re tanking for a great pick while allowing their future star to develop and learn NBA touch and game flow. This season was never gonna be a championship year so imo they’re doing awesome.

[–] Yoesito@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Chicago still owes a top-10 protected pick in 2025 to the Spurs from the DeMar trade. We're technically neutral on assets because we own a lottery protected Portland pick, but it'll never convey because they'll probably be tanking until 2028 when it turns into 2 seconds.

[–] HappyHunt1778@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

They haven't been doing the dunkey doo the same way they used to

[–] AngryPoop@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

I think Klay's toast. It's a contract year for him. He's not looking like a max player or a $25M+/year player (which was rumored to be his target number), depending on how the season plays out it seems increasingly unlikely the Warriors offer him that kind of money. The fear for me is that Klay's general lack of self-awareness is going to lead to him signing somewhere else and break up the band.

Alternatively, Klay does end up staying, I'm concerned that his lack of self-awareness (awful shot selection) is going to be the anchor dragging Steph and the team down, and the Warriors will eventually be forced to ignominiously put Klay to pasture.

I will be ecstatic if I'm wrong about either scenario.

[–] Soham_Dame_Niners@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Dame is slightly concerning to me but I’m hoping it’s just a shooting slump

[–] 2020IsANightmare@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Three of those are funny.

Pistons suck. Pop has garbage talent around him (outside of Wemby.) Scoot winning ROTY was always fucking stupid.

And three of those were #1 overall pick candidates going into this season anyway.

Klay being toast is the biggest actual factor in the league for this season.

As you stated, shooting % isn't the main thing. He just LOOKS like a shell of himself.

There's going to be some game he goes 8/10 for threes and everyone is like "The old Klay is back!!"

No.

[–] prettyboylee@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

No Pop has not fallen off. I guarantee you he knows more about their plans then we do. It’s okay for him to experiment, Wemby is 19!

They have time and if Pop sees that Sochan can develop into a PG I’ll trust him more than I trust myself or any other redditor. I also trust that if he sees it’s not working after long enough he’ll stop trying to force it.

Also Scoot has played 5 games!! Not a bust

Is Cade Cunningham simply Kyle Anderson with a high usage rate?

Remember, Kyle Anderson was a top 3 player in his HS class too.

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