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Meh. The context of the conversation is abortion so you are defining women in the context as those that have a uterus.
The problem is that sex and gender are differently defined but the words are shared. The response to anyone raising facetious arguments is simply "I am talking about sex while you are unhelpfully discussing gender - stop being an ass"
but my friend corrected me and said i meant “people who get pregnant”, because men (like trans men but still men) can get pregnant
I think the correct response is to ask that friend why are they trying to pivot the discussion from women abortion. Was she trying to rail you up? Discourage your argument or position by implying you're not good enough?
Honestly, she sounds like she preemptively gets offended on other people behalf, or like someone who weaponizes "being more PC than you".
Or she knows a pregnant man (I think the stats were about 100 a year get pregnant, most of them immediately go to a clinic) personally and decided it's the perfect time to use that fact to win the discussion? Or virtue signaling? I mean I'm assuming something is wrong with her, because that situation is random and unexpected.
Hey, trans masc here,
Love the sentiment but don't feel like an ass. If you want to include us in the sentiment it does some great stuff! It signals to trans and non-binary people who might be in listening range but be closeted or suppressing their needs in the interest of "not making waves" that you are a safe person to be themselves around. A lot of people who "don't know a non binary person" might not simply because the ones around them are in hiding because onboarding someone to our status is exhausting and sometimes risky so signaling that you've already done some the work is AMAZING.
But that being said... Don't feel guilty. This isn't a game of right and wrong. "Political Correctness" is a tactic from the 90's that really didn't work because it was about policing. It was a cold politeness rather than a meaningful offering of solidarity or a chance to learn and there is a learning curve to allyship and thus a gratitude just for trying or considering a change. That you feel guilty is very sweet but you deserve to be comfortable and happy too. We as a community tend to celebrate people doing us a kindness, not begrudge people. Your friend showed you a spot where you could insert a moment of solidarity in the future if you wanted. That you immediately seem to want to is a rarer gift than you know.
I really love this reply and especially how it promotes genuine decency rather than coerced decency. I know I'm not exactly adding to the discussion, but I really wanted to recognize how warm this reply felt to me with something more than a mere upvote.
Thank you for this I do try my best to be warm!
I have heard some folk fearmonger non-binary inclusion as some sort of theoretical pronoun police with some wild idea of disciplinary power. I know a lot of non-binary folk since we are pretty decent at identifying each other in the wild... and most of us don't even introduce ourselves with our preferred pronouns if folk don't make the space at a place we know we're likely good because it's still kind of awkward!
We know we're asking for a mental effort in helping us out so when it happens and people want to give us a boost it's so magic. The amount of energy we reclaim by not having our bodies reflected back at us through words is noticeable and so appreciated. With any group of folks with needs self advocating all the time really isn't tenable. We oftentimes just want to pick the path of least resistance even if it means putting up with stuff that's bad for us.
When people misgender someone by accident or say something in the moment that upon reflection wasn't great they often are far too hard on themselves. Yeah it doesn't feel great but you gotta step on some feet before you can dance and we're just happy you're dancing!
In my oppinion it's not the words that are the problem but the intent behind. You can say any phrase hurtfully if you want to. Especially in everyday speach you are also trying to speak with less and easily understandable words. It's not a scientidfic paper, you don't say Felis silvestris catus, you say cat.
So nta.
This. Words are descriptive not prescriptive.
As long as the person understood what you meant,which they almost certainly did as they corrected you, then the words that you used don't really matter.
Note, this doesn't mean all words are inoffensive.
first of all, you're more than fine, and secondly, people should already understand what you mean when you say "women" in the context of abortion.
the word "woman" has been used historically and socially to refer to uterus-owners, and we have unfortunately not found a good word to replace it since the word "woman" has now been repurposed for the gender role that those people play in society.
it's a super complex social and language issue that's only recently been actively discussed, and no one is ever to blame for trying to catch up from the social norms they've grown up with.
People absolutely understand what you mean, but using inclusive language is really important for supporting marginalized communities.
Lefty here. I have a queer wife who identifies as non-binary but still identifies as my wife, as well as plenty of trans and queer people in my social circles, and I don’t see the need to word police myself over completely innocent phrases. I don’t think you’re harming anyone by just saying women, when the men or nonbinary people who can get pregnant constitute like a tenth of a percentage of the population.
I go out of my way to make sure the not-straight people in my life feel safe and comfortable around me, but there’s a certain level of pearl clutching over language that I don’t feel the need to engage with. You aren’t being hateful, you’re treating people like human beings, and you get to decide for yourself how you speak.
I mostly agree with this. Your word choice doesn't have to be 'perfect' by some random definition of that. When a friend makes a request like yours did, as long as it seems reasonable, then I think its worth putting an effort into accommodating it however.
I tend to not be overly concerned with how random strangers think I should speak, but I want those around me that I care about to feel heard and cared about.
There’s definitely middle ground to be found, and decency to exercise.
You did nothing wrong. It's fucking annoying when people 'correct' me for saying something super normal
Yes. Although I also believe there are also good reasons to continue to change norms. Plenty of normal things of the past are now understood as offensive or insensitive today, language included. So I understand why people try and 'correct' language, but when it's done tactlessly or unnecessarily, it's just annoying and rude.
I know people will disagree, but as a trans man I personally find language like “people who get pregnant” really dysphoria-inducing and uncomfortable. It’s still better than AFAB/AMAB though.
what do u prefer? im so sorry its dysphoria inducing :(
Thank you. Honestly I don’t have an ideal answer for you. I would have said the same thing (“women”), although I see why people take issue with it.
I think “people who can get pregnant” is marginally better than “people who get pregnant”.
Wait, Afab and Amab aren't pirate captains? I imagine the jolly Rogers have different pride color sets, the skull also a rainbow.
(Hope next time you see/hear those terms, you think pirates instead of discomfort)
I love this comment so much you have no idea
Trans man here, in the context specifically of abortion discussions I definitely appreciate it when people try to make their language inclusive, because these issues do affect trans men and nonbinary people as well. But intent is at least as important; if someone is supportive but doesn’t say something ‘perfectly’, that’s not the same as someone saying something with malice or prejudice.
Usually terrible people don’t stop and worry about whether or not they’ve been hurtful to others. More importantly, don’t let anyone on the internet make you feel like you need to come to them for absolution. You’re the person that knows the most about your inner life and actions to determine whether or not you’re a bad person, and you have the capacity for moral reasoning. Do you think you’re a bad person for not remembering to use inclusive language 100% of the time? Is perfection a reasonable bar to expect for yourself in this regard? Do you think you hurt anyone with your comment, and if so did you make amends? Is the guilt you feel proportional to the amount of harm caused?
You don’t have to answer any of this here, just a suggestion for things to think about.
NTA, just use more inclusive language I think is what she wants :)
What she said :)
You are not.
To me this sounds like one of these things where some of us lefties can get into the weeds of "perfect" language.
Sure, if you are talking to someone like that and using the wrong words, then that could be kind of shitty but even then if people care about you they will give you grace and just hope you will get it right at some point.
You don't have to say the right words every time, but when it's important, you should make an effort to try.
It feels a bit over the top of you're not directly talking to someone affected. But maybe that's a me thing.
TL;DR no. You're good. Don't take these comments personally but also don't completely ignore them.
I don't think you're a bad person, because you're questioning this.
I will say, it's weird that I've seen you and 1 other recent account that has a similar story, both of which are new and posting a lot about Russia. If you're legit, I hope you can learn about your heritage and also unilaterally denounce what Russia/Putin is doing to Ukraine.
Yeah, i hope so too, what is the other account may i ask, or you can dm me, thats interesting. i do know my partner likes russia :)
I was also reminded of a recent user and some threads they posted, for example: https://discuss.online/post/32930214
oh yeah, that’s my partner x)
I'm going to flip this a bit, do you only feel bad for just the "people who get pregnant who the anti abortion people affect"? Or do you actually feel bad for all the "people who the anti abortion people affect", like doctors, those trying to use IVF, widowers or even the unwanted children, for example?
Rather than trying to use a more accurately specific term, I think using a more general term is likely easier and is probably more accurate.
Not an asshole, just a gentle correction from your friend!
i said i felt bad for the women who the anti abortion people affect, but my friend corrected me and said i meant “people who get pregnant”,
I think you could make a sound argument that anti-abortion people also negatively affect people that can't get pregnant in a number of ways. One of the prime targets of anti-abortion people is the organization Planned Parenthood. While Planned Parenthood does offer abortion services, they also offer many healthcare related services around other health concerns.
So both of these groups are clearly people that can't get pregnant, but are also negatively affected when anti-abortion people's actions lead to a shut down of a local clinic serving these populations.
You're not a bad person, she's more correct, but this is a change in language in process. The bad person thing is to lash out against others doing it as some have.
Also, good on you for actually listening to gentle correction from a friend. That's something a lot of people struggle with and lash out against
First of all, I'm proud of you for being the kind of person who is self-critical enough to ask questions like this. Things like 'Do I speak hurtfully?' And 'Am I acting with privilege?' Are hard to seriously ask, because they challenge our entire life structure to some extent, and might even require us to undertake the perilous and difficult task of manually adjusting our beliefs.
Then, to address what you actually asked, I think a general term is in your favor, if it's true. Would you rather communicate that you feel for everyone undergoing an experience, or just most of them? It's an easy thing to forget, that non women can become pregnant, and I doubt anyone blames you for misspeaking. That's not an asshole thing to do. Nor is it an asshole move for someone to correct you. That's just the dialectic of culture functioning properly and healthily. It's unfortunate that we're trained to associate self-change as a negative thing, because we should be questioning ours and other's beliefs constantly, imo
yes; the worst.
damn
No, it was an honest mistake
I would not worry about it. If people get bent out of shape then so be it. Im super liberal but I did not grow up where gender and sex were different things. Im cool with folks being trans but if they want me to change to accomodate them well thats not going to happen. They can live their lives and the law can protect them from discrimination but people will be who they are. Its like if a furry wants me to use some fursona thing thats unlikely to happen. Its cool they have one but im not part of that world but its cool for them to be them. Now granted this might change a bit if Im good friends with someone. At that point they have a bit more points to get me to change my habits. To me its a bit like using a nickname. You do it with those you know.
No