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A friend and I are arguing over ghosts.
I think it’s akin to astrology, homeopathy and palm reading. He says there’s “convincing “ evidence for its existence. He also took up company time to make a meme to illustrate our relative positions. (See image)
(To be fair, I’m also on the clock right now)
What do you think?
For decades James Randi offered a million dollars for any evidence of supernatural shit that can be tested. Many people tried, but none were able to produce evidence to earn the money.
If ghosts were a very rare occurrence and only 0.00001% of all dead people produced ghosts we would still be completely overrun by ghosts everywhere, they would be mundane in how common they are. And that's not counting ghost animals, ghost dinosaurs, etc.
The impulse to believe in ghosts can be explained as well. For most of human evolutionary history we had predators (cats, bears, wolves, hyenas, etc). If you heard a noise in the bush and didn't assume it came from an agent you were more likely to be ambushed than if you assumed it was an agent even when it was just the wind. The survival trait biased us towards assuming agency even when it's not. When you hear a noise in your home at night your first though isn't settling foundations, it's intruder.
Man, the downvote ratio really goes to show how many people vote without reading a post. I imagine a lot of them would agree with you, but they just saw the meme and thought, "That's stupid." Which is ironically a vote in your favor.
The question's a little weird.
Can a reasonable person genuinely believe in ghosts? Yes, obviously, people do and many of them would be considered generally reasonable. They manage their lives okay, they make good decisions most of the time, they're not gibbering maniacs, they're reasonable people.
But: is it reasonable (meaning, grounded in good evidence) to believe in ghosts? I'd say it depends on what you and your friend specifically mean by "ghosts", but in general no. If ghosts were real, they'd be more observable.
And "Hitchens said so" is pretty weak sauce, so I hope that's an uncharitable summary of your argument.
I'm not going to rule out the possibility of something existing that we don't know of yet.
However, if we're supposed to look for anything in any way, we first need to know what we're looking for. So, what's a ghost? Is a a soul, and if so, what's a soul?
I think that's an interesting question with or without ghost.
People who believe in souls, should attempt to explain what a soul is and how they experience their existence. Is it an emergent feature of the electrons or brainwaves that can travel in other dimensions that our normal physics can't detect or something completely unknown?
People who have experiences with ghosts and souls should be investigated. How do they detect their observations? Are they somehow able to sense things that happen in other dimensions? That'd be really cool, and I still won't rule it out. The human mind can do weird stuff. For instance echo localization like bats do, seeing more colours than normal or even just perfect pitch. Stuff like that is provable and shows that our senses can be expanded by training. Perhaps we even have dormant senses like seeing magnetic fields like birds do.
So let's say some people can see ghosts but we just can't measure it currently, because we don't know how it works. We can still make an experiment where we compare the observations from these special skills and see if they align. If it turns out that the people who can see ghosts agree, then we should definitely investigate it further and find out what happens in their heads when they see ghosts. Where does the brain impulses come from? That'll teach us about the special sense, which could then prove the existence of ghosts.
I doubt their observations match up in a controlled environment. It's a shame because it would be really easy to prove the existence of ghosts.
Do I believe in ghosts in the literal sense of an actual spirit hanging around in the physical world haunting places and people? No.
Do I think it's fascinating to see how the idea of "ghosts" are used in a cultural sense usually representing an individual or group's desires, thoughts, feelings, etc. after they've passed on and usually storytelling around respecting their wishes or finishing what they started so they can finally be "at peace"? Yes.
I also find it fascinating in a tragic way how people who've gone through extreme grief and loss can cling to the idea of ghosts, particularly of loved ones. Perhaps the pyschie doesn't want to let go of that person so much that it can manifest as audio-visual hallucinations that feel incredibly real to the individual.
After all, we all perceive the world through our brain: it is the filter for everything.
I've experienced some strange stuff personally, but I don't think I've seen an actual ghost. I remember having a dream about a close relative the night they died suddenly and we all found out in the morning. But that could be my memory post-rationalising something.
I've seen a milk bottle fly out from the back of the fridge but I swear I remember that the fridge wasn't rocking unstably and that the milk was definitely at the back of the fridge. But I could have seen incorrectly because who pays attention to the precise location of a milk bottle when opening the fridge.
And I've encountered machines that appeared to be haunted. An ex-gf's iPod classic she kept because it is a time capsule of her music would randomly turn itself on, play 10 seconds of a random song, then turn itself off again.
I can feel how a ghost story would fit all of these and feel like it would make emotional sense to me. Like there's some deep part of our evolutionary psychology that supports feeling this way. Why?
Now in that sense I believe people genuinely experienced "ghosts" that aren't actually there but are a part of their perceived reality and I find that fascinating.
He says there’s “convincing “ evidence for its existence.
Big if true. He should send that to you instead of making memes.
Yeah, this is literally it. There is either evidence and that's the end of the argument, or there isn't and you're just having fun talking about ghosts.
Depending on where you live, your friend might be eligible for using public transportation completely for free with a special id. It is also possible that their job security is going through the roof. One needs to be tested first, though and from what you wrote about them, I'd suggest that you or another person close to them escort them to a clinic. This way they don't get lost and can get help speaking with the personell when the instructions or other information get too complicated for them.
We have built systems that have detected:
We have come into a world where people carry around, nearly 24/7, devices capable of recording high definition video, measuring variances in light, magnetism, vibration, storing time correlated data and even processing over it with enough proficiency to put digital bunny ears or makeup on you in real time.
Despite all this, we have no evidence and no mechanism by which we even might expect ghosts could exist. It's reasonable to say you can't be 100% certain they don't exist, but it is also wildly unreasonable to say they do.
Yeah but did those scientists ever point the James Webb Telescope at that creepy house at the end of my street?
Ghosts are real but only jedi masters (like the one in the meme) can see them. Unfortunately, jedi masters are not real.
So Anakin can't see ghosts?
If ghosts were real, then I can think of a few people throughout history who would have been swarmed by them. Adolf Hitler would have approximately 13 million spirits haunting him by the end. Something like 100,000,000,000 humans have ever lived, and somehow all the ghosts are from culturally relevant time frames? For all the US civil war ghosts people have seen, you'd think there'd be orders of magnitude more native Americans haunting this place. Did the European colonists just make sure to let the Indigenous peoples finish all their business before hunting them to near extinction?
Dude just thinks he's special. There would be ANY evidence by now. The superiority of the meme is laughable. Your friend is a fool.
The bar for “convincing” is very low when you want to believe.
all it takes is some freaky shit sometimes. People forget that a lot happens in the world that deviates from their baseline and that it isn’t always paranormal.
From my perspective, ghosts are basically the result of...
/3. Infrasound
Ghosts are fun to think about and make good stories, but there's never been one bit of reliable evidence. So no it's not reasonable to believe in something that isn't real.
People who don't believe in ghosts just assume that people who believe in them think they are like blankets moving all by themselves like they are in cartoons. That is, of course, not the case. It's much more complicated than that. Atheists sometimes really fall for the dumbest arguments possible
No, people who don't believe in ghosts realise that there is ZERO credible, reproducible evidence for the existence of ghosts whatsoever, and therefore no basis to believe in them.