this post was submitted on 18 Aug 2023
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ULTRARAM will allow you to close your laptop, come back a thousand years later and pick up where you left off (www.techradar.com)
submitted 1 year ago by floofloof@lemmy.ca to c/technology@beehaw.org
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[–] GameGod@beehaw.org 50 points 1 year ago

We already had this, it's called Intel Optane Persistent Memory and Intel killed it off last year: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/memory-storage/optane-persistent-memory/overview.html

The memory speed was slightly slower than DDR4 but the benefits didn't seem to outweigh the downsides. I think it probably kicked a lot of ass for specific use cases (eg. in-memory database that needs persistence), but the market was too small. Plus, SSDs are getting so ridiculously fast that it would put pressure on a product like this too.

[–] Catsrules@lemmy.ml 19 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Of course, this is still a new and emerging technology and it’s too early to say when we might see it in our devices, or how much it will cost.

Looks really cool, buy yeah my guess is i will cost to much to be viable for most things.

[–] moonsnotreal@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 points 1 year ago

Maybe it could be good for moving and storing servers?

[–] weew@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

it'll hit business servers first... speed and power draw = profits. Even if they cost 1000x more than SSDs, the power savings and speed alone could pay for itself in a datacenter.

[–] wrath-sedan@kbin.social 19 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Can’t wait for my ram to last 1000 years just for the hinge on my laptop screen to last 2 (guess what just broke on my laptop after 2 years)

[–] BuxtonWater@beehaw.org 16 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Perfect for when civilization collapses and we have to do some wasteland 2 shenannigans to get the lost knowledge of the past back by hoarding laptops.

[–] NaoPb@beehaw.org 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And then you find out they were mainly working from the cloud.

[–] pimento64@sopuli.xyz 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If everything stored solely in the cloud was suddenly lost forever, that would probably be a net boon for humanity.

[–] NaoPb@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago

True, true.

[–] Evil_Shrubbery@lemmy.zip 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

lost ~~knowledge~~ memes

[–] pirrrrrrrr@lemmy.dbzer0.com 15 points 1 year ago

Now... Let's see what 1000 years of cosmic radiation does to the data.

[–] shiveyarbles@beehaw.org 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sounds like a niche use-case for pizza delivery drivers stumbling into cryo chambers

[–] lemmyingly@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago

But only if I get to look into the beautiful eye of my favorite purple haired friend

[–] S13Ni@lemmy.studio 10 points 1 year ago

Shout out to whoever picked that thumbnail image.

[–] insurgenRat@beehaw.org 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This sounds like a giant security risk?

[–] mp3@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Depends if the RAM is encrypted, and how secure the TPM is.

[–] insurgenRat@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I admit to being out of the game for a while but how common is RAM encryption?

wouldn't the overhead violate half the point of RAM?

[–] d3Xt3r@lemmy.nz 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

There's always a tradeoff in computing between security v/s performance/overhead, so the value of it depends on your threat model, and the attack vectors you're expecting.

Anyways, RAM encryption is generally "available" in various forms, depending on the mobo, CPU, software used etc, but it's not commonly enabled/used. Most AMD boards (at least, mid-range and above should) have an option in the BIOS to enable Secure Memory Encryption (SME). This allows the OS to selectively encrypt memory pages, making use of a hardware AES engine that sits outside of the CPU.

There's also Transparent SME (TSME), which encrypts the entire memory and works completely independent of the OS and software. Usually only high-end/workstation boards have this, and it also requires a Ryzen PRO CPU. TSME also has a much lower overhead, I recall reading somewhere it's something like only 5%.

I believe Intel also has something similar, but I never looked into it.

AMD have a whitepaper available with an overview on how this stuff works, if you're interested: https://www.amd.com/system/files/TechDocs/memory-encryption-white-paper.pdf

[–] Roundcat@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So does it allow this by granting immortality or by necromancy?

[–] some_guy@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago

By uploading your consciousness to the cloud. Basic plans start at $4.99/mo

[–] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I love the security implications of this. /s

[–] XTornado@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

?

[–] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So you know those encrypted files you might have? You know how your computer is able to display them? Yeah, you enter the passcode and then it and any information derived from it is (probably, barring special hardware) stored in RAM to in order do that. This isn't usually an issue because turning your computer off will quickly erase the RAM and it can no longer be used to open that file.

[–] XTornado@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I mean... this already happens now if you leave the PC open or in sleep, for example with bitlocker.

And I guess in this case it could allow when shutdown if the memory has not been cleared.... But most of the time that is not a problem, most people aren't attacked by pulling the info directly from the hardware.

And in case that is a possible attack, I expect a mechanism of the app(s) to clear that region on shutdown or whatever is done or even better maybe the OS would do it as part of the existing memory protection mechanisms. I mean most apps already clear the memory as soon as possible if it is not needed to avoid having secrets or unencrypted information on memory.

[–] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I didn't actually look more closely at how this works, but some kinds of memory are hard to safely erase. If I had to use this, I'd make sure there was a secure wipe of the whole thing minus whatever the system itself is using at shutdown.

It wouldn't completely break security, if that even makes sense as a concept, but it wouldn't help. Hardware security is the strongest kind.

[–] maxprime@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Or you could encrypt the snapshot before it goes to sleep.

[–] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Again, you just have to be careful you've cleared all the other stuff on the RAM.

[–] ricecake@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago

This is already a thing we need to deal with, security wise. An application making use of encryption doesn't know the condition of what it views as ram, and it could very well be transferred to a durable medium due to memory pressure. Same thing with hibernation as opposed to suspension.

Depending on your application and how sensitive it is, there are different steps you can take to deal with stuff like that.

[–] beejjorgensen@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 1 year ago

"Right. Now... what was I working on, again?"

[–] AnAngryAlpaca@feddit.de 7 points 1 year ago

I don't think a battery, soldering joints or displays would last that long...

[–] Bizarroland@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I have to regretfully say I would have had an apocalypse bingo but I didn't have "Laptop of Dorian Gray" on my scorecard

[–] 30p87@feddit.de 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So basically just a quicker SSD for systemctl hibernate?

[–] lupec@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago

Yeah, sounds like a best of both worlds situation where you wouldn't have to decide whether to suspend or hibernate anymore

[–] mojo@lemm.ee 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I don't understand the point of this. That's what the hard drive I for. The RAM is meant to be wiped.

[–] Llewellyn@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

RAM is not meant to be wiped. It's just we haven't found a way to make it constant, but still as quick as it is now.

[–] Chobbes@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago

Yeah. I mean, sometimes RAM getting “wiped” is a “feature”, e.g., you don’t want somebody to be able to pull information from RAM after you shut off your computer… but that’s not really what it’s designed for (and you can recover data from powered off RAM in some lucky cases). It’d be sweet if we could have fast non-volatile memory. Having a computer use 0 power when suspended and not having to worry about hibernating to disk would be sweet! I do kind of wonder about the security RAMifications of that, but I guess it’s not much worse than having a laptop suspended currently.

[–] explodicle@local106.com 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Wouldn't it kill your hard drive quickly if every bit in memory was constantly written there - if it was all virtual memory? I think of it like "stuff in my desk" vs "stuff on top of my desk", and now nobody mixes up the papers on my desk when I walk away.

[–] mojo@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's what RAM is. Following your analogy, you'll put stuff occasionally inside the desk when you're done with it, and keep working what's on your desk. I see persistent ram as like working inside the desk, which is a bit weird to me. Or a desk that just never gets cleaned up.

[–] explodicle@local106.com 2 points 1 year ago

That last one is how I see it too. Just never gets cleaned up.

[–] Michal@discuss.tchncs.de 4 points 1 year ago

Have you tried turning it off and on again?

[–] harbinger@lemmy.zip 4 points 1 year ago

But how do I download more?

[–] gamey@feddit.rocks 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Our Families Windows XP Laptop had a RAM to storage feature that essentially did the same. I think Windows killed it off but if I had to guess it's just not a good idea to avoid rebooting properly so I really can't see the use for this.

[–] EinfachUnersetzlich@lemm.ee 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You mean hibernate?

[–] gamey@feddit.rocks 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I have absolutely no clue, I just remember what it did and that I tried it a few too many times in a row back then.

[–] floofloof@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It still exists, and it works better now.

[–] gamey@feddit.rocks 1 points 1 year ago

Interesting, I haven't used Windows in ages.

[–] pkulak@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago

I keep my encryption keys in ram. No thank you.