Autism

That if there was a way to remove people’s neurodivergence without causing harm, it should be offered to them. And that for those that are truly suffering, it should be the choice that is encouraged.

It sounds superficialy benign, but keep in mind that "removing" behavior basically always ends up with shaming and manipulating people into masking, causing "hidden" harm.

Also, which suffering is intrinsic and which is caused by intolerance and ignorance of others is - empirically - impossible for others to know.

So, I find this way of thinking really scary.

I'd say your friend's viewpoint is fine, as long as he isn't advocating for forcing any specific treatment on people. Like maybe you don't agree with him but it's fine for friends to respectfully disagree about something. It sounds like he's just saying it should be an option for people who feel that they are really suffering, and I don't think that's a particularly awful position.

It would be different if he said something like "every ND person should be forced have their ND-ness removed if there's a medical way of doing so"

I think you make an important point that some of your differences of opinion are due to different experience--the fact that your friend has more contact with people who are suffering and more dependent and have less ability to express themselves. The important thing is to keep an open mind, as it sounds like you are doing, so that as you meet people in different circumstances you don't ignore the possibility that what's right for you is not right for them. You don't have enough information (maybe no one does) to come to a final universal conclusion about this, so it's ok to disagree. If you want to gain understanding, maybe find a way to have more contact with people more severely impacted than yourself.

I feel like the saying that autism is a difference and a disability applies here. Some autistic people are more affected by differences being mistaken for disabilities, and feel disability language undercuts them. Some autistic people are more affected by disabilities being mistaken for differences and feel difference language undercuts them. My thought is that both sides need to acknowledge both sides.

not exactly a neutral party, here, but i'm someone who deals with frequent imposter syndrome around autism because i'm "not autistic enough." i am certainly seen as capable and high functioning despite being disabled.

so, people tend to think in terms of good or bad and really struggle to deal with the fact that something can be both things. so a lot of people are confused about how a disability could be something to accept or even celebrate.

and i think that is a huge part of the problem. people go through hardships. that is life. it is regularly acknowledged as part of what makes life beautiful. and the hardships people face are different, and affect them in different ways.

neurological differences are one of many unique experiences that can cause immense hardship and also bring immense joy.

everyone deserves support through their hardships. everyone. but for autism in particular and neurodivergence in general, it's like— it's not an isolated thing. it's not, "if you could walk again, would you chose to? if you could see again, would you get the surgery?" it's like you said, being a different person. effectively ceasing to exist.

"but so many people suffer!" yes! they do! and they deserve to be supported through that as they are, for who they are— not coercively "fixed" according to someone else's idea of normal. being regularly told i was malformed from the day i was conceived isn't going to alleviate any of my suffering, dipshit.

it's also ignorant to look at a DIVERSITY movement such as NEURODIVERSITY and then be pissy that it's not one size fits all? OF COURSE IT'S NOT.

someone like your friend suggesting that the things some autists want and need are wrong because other autists need something else is so astonishingly missing the point it's difficult not to get pissed about it. like, duh! fucking DUH. that's the whole fucking movement, that there are people who have different life experiences and needs and contributions and that we should stop trying to make everyone conform to a narrow idea of what "normal" is.

how the fuck does that translate to ignoring people's support needs and suffering.

as an aside, one reason i reject the concept of autism as a disability: i'm autistic and adhd. i can speak (usually). there are autists who cannot speak and are nonverbal. but there are also many autists like me who can speak.

... so while being nonverbal is often associated with autism, it's not a defining feature. to be autistic is not to be nonverbal, and to be nonverbal is not to be autistic.

this is why i personally feel like autism is a type of person. a neurotype. autists have a lot in common with each other and we also have a shit ton of differences among us, like any other group. there are disorders and disabilities that are more common for autists than allists, but that does not make autism equivalent to those disabilities.

and either way, conflating the celebration of autism with dismissing the needs of our most disabled neurokin is ridiculous, ignorant, and disrespectful to all autists.

like, what, i'm not allowed to be proud of my creativity and curiosity because many autists are miserable? like, what the fuck?

Yes, at least he isn't labeling you with stereotypes.

Divide it into dimensions:

Separate them.

Autism ( I'm saying this from experience ) is fundamentally a kind of braindamage that removes a person's social-processing circuitry, to greater or lesser extent, while making us woodenheaded.

It can be outright lifecrippling.

It can require DECADES to fight-off, enough, that one can function approximately as a civilization-citizen.

It can be too strong to fight-off.

I wouldn't trade-in my autism for anything, and many neurotypicals don't want that to be seen/known/valid, in any way.

Fine.

They want conforming, I want them to stop abusing our-kind's abilities, out of their "only our kind is allowed" undercurrent.

I've been on a construction-job where I was given MY kind of work: me & things taskwork, and was later removed from being allowed to continue testing those tunnel-walls & marking the failing-areas, because neurotypicals wouldn't want to do that work, therefore they wouldn't permit me to do it.

It was required work that wasn't done, because neurotypicals wouldn't like doing it, and there are safety-consequences of that.

It is more-likely that someone is going to die due to a tunnel-collapse, as a result of that work being not-done.

That's offensive to me.

I don't function well in social-process: it is abuse.

There is such a fundamental "that isn't possible, therefore that isn't allowed" current underlying human .. politicking, for lack of a better word, .. that there is no point in pretending that optimal-lives-for-each-of-is can be permitted by the politicking-motivation.

Anyways, both the neurodiversity side & the true-disability-side have valid pieces of understanding, but the objectivity required to come to the truth isn't what political-motivation tolerates.

I think your 1st-responder friend isn't seeing the high-functioning autistics, AND I think you aren't seeing the cripples of our kind.

Just my idiotic 2 cents, is all.

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