this post was submitted on 20 Oct 2023
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Much worse, unless you hypothesize that Trae become a player we've only seen in short spurts in his entire career: a guy who is locked in on defense and plays hard after he passes the ball.
Trae is really really good with the ball in his hands. He, for his career, has been largely mediocre when it's not in his hands, on both sides of the floor.
With Jokic you don't really want the ball in Trae's hands.
WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS TAKE I FEEL LIKE IM GOING CRAZY
Do yall even watch the Nuggets last season? There were many times where Jokic sat or even with him on court that, he would let Jamal run the offense.
You're overthinking it. Think about what Murray does and if Trae can do it.
Run PNR? Trae can do it better.
Run the offense while Jokic sits? Trae can do it better.
Close out games? Murray has done it in higher stakes, but Trae isn't scared of the moment either.
Trae is a more consistent scorer and undebatably better passer. Defense is the only downgrade, which people constantly mis-attribute in these debates. He takes a lot of bad shots, which Jokic would be able to help. He's not a cutter, but he can score from anywhere and is a great catch-and-shooter.
So, eliminates the biggest strength of the Nuggets offense?
No, not with a center that should handle the ball and take more shots than him in the PNR. You're just assuming that Trae will change his most defining traits as a basketball player and become an enthusiastic mid-play passer and off-ball cutter.
Not really sure why the Nuggets would sacrifice their entire unselfish offensive ethos , interior finishing, hustle, defense, and rebounding for 36 minutes (Jokic time) in exchange for better bench offense.
Everything after the "but" is hope/assumption vs proven track record.
You’re assuming a lot about Trae who has been the man since day 1, but Trae wants to win and not necessarily as the man. If the Hawks don’t improve significantly this year, which I think they will, Trae will ask for a trade and he would gladly go to a team with a top 10 guy. Trae hasn’t had many options in Atlanta especially with Nate McMillan coaching. You’ll be surprised by what you see form trae this season under Snyder
1-Cutting was never something that jamal murray is good at and certainly not something he’s better than trae
2-Do you see the jokic/Murray PnR?, Murray handles the ball 90% of the time and in an inverted PNR we have 0 evidence that trae would be worse than murray in that simply because HE NEVER PLAYED WITH SOMEONE LIKE JOKIC
3-BY FAR THE WORST ASPECT ABOUT THE NUGGETS IS HOW GODAWFUL THE NON-JOKIC MINUTES ARE, Whenever its just murray on rhe court without jokic the nuggets’ offense is a stagnant fucking mess where just chucks some bs contested shots and dribbles the ball for 90% of the shotclock, Having trae young on the court while resting jokic????? The team would go 16-0 this year, not to mention that trae on that nuggets team without jokic is ideal for him as well
I feel like im going crazy seeing people praise jamal murray like this lol
for all that upside you get with trae on the team when jokic doesn’t have the ball, there’s a whole bunch of downside for when trae doesn’t have the ball. murray is way better off ball than trae. why would you want to go from a player who is good next to jokic regardless of whether he has the ball to a player who will only be good in certain scenarios
Question: did you see the nuggets’ two man game with murray and someone other than jokic? Cause its godawful, murray isnt great offball and the only reason trae is called terrible off ball is that he had the worst fucking ball handlers in the league on his team
Trae is an improvement in every single aspect except defense which both players are awful in
Trae can’t set a screen and pop like Jamal can
Stars tend to play 40 mins a game in the playoffs. Those minutes jokic sits are less of an issue.
Jamal is a better shot creator and honestly it isn’t even close. Just look at their playoff numbers
Literally no reason to replace him with a smaller guard more inefficient guard when you have Jokic’s playmaking
You are pointing at numbers without applying context. Trae doesn't have Jokic roller, and Murray isn't a first option scorer. Every Hawks game defenses are focused on slowing down Trae. For the Nuggets its defending Jokic post ups and funneling the pass to the weakest shooter. Jamal isn't getting the double teams or traps. By number Trae is super inefficient, but I guarantee Jokic would make anyone including Trae more effecient and productive.
When has Trae shown that he can play off ball? Trae hasn’t shown the ability to sacrifice his usage even with a playmaker like Murray
Even if he could transition off-ball, his height makes him not good for a spot up shooter role
You are just dismissing the cutting aspect, but Murray and Jokic have probably the best cutter-passer connection of anyone in the league. Jamal eats off of cuts and opens up a lot of the offense with those actions. Taking that away hamstrings the top end upside of what the Nuggets do.
Nuggets are better with Murray cutting, but they are also fine without it. There are other players that cut. IMO Young would make up for that with everything else. Numbers point to Murray being a better shooter, but it doesn't take account for the degree of difficulty and focus Murray faces vs Trae. Playing with Jokic, means you will get open shots and easy looks.
Imo the main drop offs are jump shot making and defense. Jamal Murray is an elite shot maker and has basically every jump shot in the book, pull up left / right, catch and shoot, fadeaway left / right ect ect ect. He has enough size at the guard position where it’s tough to force him out of his comfort zone shooting. The size is what helps on defense also.
As a number 2 next to jokic his shot making ability is what makes him the perfect fit.
Lets look at how dame performs without the ball first. Dame hasnt done it in portland also.
This is a nonsensical comparison.
Dame is going to have the ball primarily in Milwaukee because what you want is him ball handling in the pick and roll with Giannis.
Murray does not primarily have the ball most of the time in the pick and roll with Jokic. Sure they do it some, but they run a ton of inverted pick and rolls and dribble-hand-offs because the ball is so effective in Jokic's hands..
Meanwhile the biggest flaw in Giannis' game is probably that he wants to handle the ball a ton up top but he's not actually that good at it.