this post was submitted on 28 Jan 2025
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Many EU countries have a "VAT" and like feel like this is kinda targeting poor people. Like, for the rich, this is insignificant, for poorer people, a (example) 20% tax would be a huge burden. Why do they do this?

๐Ÿค”

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[โ€“] Kazumara@discuss.tchncs.de 4 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

Just to make sure you know: Basically everyone has a VAT, except the US. It's not some special EU thing.

We have it in Switzerland, Canada has it, Japan has it, China has it, India has it, Russia has it, Brazil has it, Indonesia has it, Australia has it, Ukraine has it, Mexico has it, South Africa has it... I'm stopping here, but every country I googled had it so far.

[โ€“] trashgirlfriend@lemmy.world 1 points 17 hours ago (2 children)

Doesn't the US also have local taxes that are effectively the same as a VAT

[โ€“] Kazumara@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 2 hours ago

You probably mean the sales taxes, those look similar from a consumer point of view, but they work differently.

In a VAT system the taxes are collected all along the value addition chain. Each sale of intermediary products has the VAT cost on it, but companies can claim the VAT that they pay for their inputs against the one they collected on their outputs. In effect each company hands over the part of VAT that is raised on their part of the value addition. In the end it all comes from the consumer who buys the final product but doesn't sell anything onward so they can't claim their paid VAT against anything. This system determines the end consumer automatically.

In a sales tax system, only the sale to the final end customer is taxed, and intermediary products are not taxed. Intermediary companies must prove to their suppliers that they are not end customers, that they intend to sell things onward, and that they are therefore exempted from sales tax and the supplier does not have to collect sales tax. If that fails, then that means mistakenly a company has to pay sales tax, and then their customer has to pay it again.

Other than that I don't know enough to compare:

  • What is more or less administrative overhead.
  • What is more or less open to fraud.
  • To what degree this is linked to the existence of a single national or many regional tax rates
[โ€“] runner_g@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 15 hours ago

We have taxes imposed by: -federal government -state government -county and city governments

Nothing will meaningfully improve until the rich fear for their lives

It's regressive in the sense that poor people spend more of their money on goods and services that include VAT.

It's also "broad based" in that wealthy people spend more money (in total) on things, and the vendors of those things collect the tax.

For example, if a company in Australia sells a $11m private jet to some asshole, that asshole just paid $1m in taxes.

Said asshole may well pay no income tax by virtue of their ability to disappear taxable income through complex business structures.

[โ€“] Maggoty@lemmy.world 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Because we let the rich people make the rules.

What do you mean "instead of"? There are many kinds of taxes in my country, which is in the EU. I pay a huge cut of my salary in taxes every month even before I pay VAT on things I buy.

[โ€“] Treczoks@lemmy.world 23 points 2 days ago (1 children)

VAT is a sales tax, not an income tax.

[โ€“] MothmanDelorian@lemmy.world 30 points 2 days ago (5 children)

And yet the claim that it is regressive is accurate. It impacts those that have less wealth to a greater degree which makes it regressive.

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[โ€“] sockenklaus@sh.itjust.works 14 points 2 days ago

Yes, you're correct: Poorer people spend most of not all of their available on income on everyday goods like groceries, clothes, etc...

Richer people spend (relatively speaking!) less of their available income on these items and save me

[โ€“] alvvayson@lemmy.dbzer0.com 80 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It is, but it's also a very efficient and difficult to evade tax. For many EU countries the VAT revenue is equal or larger than the income tax revenue.

Most Europeans don't mind it. You can control your spending, so VAT doesn't hit us in inconvenient ways, like for example, taxes on cars and property.

European countries compensate poor people with good social programs. So in the end, poor people are getting more benefits than the VAT they pay.

[โ€“] Bruncvik@lemmy.world 1 points 19 hours ago (2 children)

I agree overall, but VAT is not all that difficult to evade, at least in the service industry. Paying handymen in cash is common in many countries, and that's a means to evade VAT. Hell, even using them to buy the building or landscaping materials for you (being a registered business they purchase for prices without VAT) saves you on most of the tax. Then there's service barter. I did it only once, a long time ago, but it can serve as an example: I did family portraits (photography) for my physio, in exchange for a number of physio sessions. If we charged each other, it would have cost each of us, say, 250 Euros, but we'd only see 200 each, and the state would get 100. So, savings of 50 for each of us.

[โ€“] Kazumara@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

being a registered business they purchase for prices without VAT

That's not true, sorry. A business pays stuff with VAT included too, but they can later claim back the VAT they paid against the VAT they raised from selling stuff, so they don't have to hand all of that over.

[โ€“] Bruncvik@lemmy.world 1 points 1 hour ago

I'm personally not sure how it works. But when we were upgrading our bathroom, the tile shop added the VAT to the quoted sale price. I then asked a friend of mine who is VAT-registeted to buy it for us, and he got it from the same warehouse for the non-VAT price.

[โ€“] alvvayson@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 19 hours ago

Sure, but those are relatively small potatoes.

And if a single person does it a lot, then the tax authorities can easily examine their spending and prove that they are spending more than they are officially earning. And then they can apply punitive measures.

[โ€“] Boomkop3@reddthat.com 27 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (14 children)

That tax is reduced for important goods in most countries, like with bread

[โ€“] MothmanDelorian@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago (5 children)

All consumption taxes are regressive.

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[โ€“] qyron@sopuli.xyz 15 points 2 days ago (7 children)

Essential goods have a 6% taxation in my country (Portugal). This also applies to the first 200kw/h you use in your home.

Then there is a 13% for services, like restaurants. I think wine is also taxed thia way.

The higher tier is reserved for non essential items, like cookies, chocolate, fuels (which are technically being double taxed), cars, etc.

We also pay a direct contribution for our social security system (11% over your gross salary, monthly), plus a direct taxation over our overall monthly salary (the minimum wage workers are exempt from this).

The discussiom on these taxes is long, old and boring but it essentially boils down to having those who want something, pay for it.

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[โ€“] Lauchs@lemmy.world 40 points 2 days ago (25 children)

They also tax the rich through progressive income taxes, capital gains taxes, corporate taxes etc.

If you're asking why not just tax the rich in place of a VAT, well, it's sort of why not tax the rich to pay for absolutely everything we could want. The costs and difficulties in taxing the rich generally scale to the point where the marginal revenue raised by the tax becomes negative.

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[โ€“] jrs100000@lemmy.world 27 points 2 days ago

Sales taxes, including VAT, are inherently regressive. Normally things like unprocessed food are exempted to minimize impact, but it does still affect the poor more than the rich. Why keep them? They are easy to collect, hard to avoid and can bring in lots of revenue without people noticing or complaining.

[โ€“] Etterra@discuss.online 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

We have VAT in America. The States got pissy that we were buying things online and not paying sales tax. Now we have to pay VAT and sales tax because Google and such caved in to pressure, and the rich assholes still do whatever they want. Capitalism is hell and America is doomed.

Good luck y'all.

[โ€“] BradleyUffner@lemmy.world 4 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) (1 children)

There is no VAT in America. Just sales tax at a state and local level. VAT is a very specific method of taxation that isn't the same as a general sales tax. I'm still not sure how you are relating that to Google either though. Google sells very little compared to someplace like Amazon.

[โ€“] Etterra@discuss.online -1 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

I don't know what State you live in but we sure as shit have it in Illinois.

[โ€“] BradleyUffner@lemmy.world 1 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago)

Illinois has a use tax, commonly called retail sales tax, which is NOT VAT.

Read up on the differences here: https://www.fonoa.com/blog/vat-vs-sales-tax-where-the-difference-hides

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