this post was submitted on 10 Nov 2023
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[–] xhieron@lemmy.world 89 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Outstanding journalism. Say the numbers and say their names. Do not let the water barons hide.

The generational accumulation of massive wealth and its centralization among only a few families is a hallmark of inequality, and it's no different for a farming empire than for a tech or finance empire.

When there is no more water, drink Alex Abatti's blood instead.

[–] Pipoca@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Asked this spring if it was fair for Imperial farmers to receive so much river water, California Gov. Gavin Newsom told The Desert Sun,“It is what it is. It’s called senior water rights, and they are well established in law. And they matter.”

The eastern US uses riparian water rights; everyone has the right to use a reasonable amount of water. If there's not enough water, water usage is limited essentially equally across all the rights-holders.

The western US mostly uses the prior appropriation doctrine - "first in time, first in right". Basically, as the west was being settled, you could use as much river water for a mine or settlement as you wanted, so long as you didn't impact the people who were already there. In the case of a shortage, people with the most recent water rights have to reduce their usage so they don't impact the senior water rights.

Western water rights maybe made sense originally as the first mines were being built, but they have inequality baked into them from the start. They don't seem like a great system for the conservation challenges of today.

[–] Treczoks@lemm.ee 48 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So they get the water for free and get paid for from tax dollars to conserve water?

Maybe if they actually had to pay for it, conserving water would be something they would do on their own just to to save money...

[–] CmdrShepard@lemmy.one 29 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They probably also get paid by the federal government to grow certain crops instead of others. The whole rural US is heavily supported by federal welfare.

[–] cricket98@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (6 children)

What is inherently wrong with the government subsidizing industry?

[–] jettrscga@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago (13 children)

Nothing in my opinion.

But it sure is frustrating when farming areas claim to hate welfare because it's socialism while refusing to acknowledge the type of government welfare they rely on to live.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

"I got mine, fuck you" is a pretty typical Republican attitude.

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[–] jonne@infosec.pub 5 points 1 year ago

Mostly when the considerations are political instead of economic. Eg. Corn is subsidised to a ridiculous level because Iowa is an early caucus state.

[–] Franzia@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It creates waste (ie. Water)

[–] Plague_Doctor@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

I feel like it has more to do with taking advantage of the government systems. Which is something companies and rich families are no stranger to doing.

[–] cricket98@lemmy.world -3 points 1 year ago

Every industry creates waste. Solar panel production produces waste. Plant based dairy alternatives produce waste. Everything produces waste.

[–] Smokeydope@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

When government money dries up, say during an economic depression, so does the industries it supported. I imagine a lot of families get reliant on the welfare checks and if those checks ever dry up they are fucked because their business model is unsustainable on its own. If this were a luxury thing it wouldn't be too bad of an issue but food production is pretty damn essential to a society.

[–] cricket98@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If this were a luxury thing it wouldn’t be too bad of an issue but food production is pretty damn essential to a society

The reason it is subsidized is BECAUSE food production is essential to society. Isn't that... a good thing?

[–] Smokeydope@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Honestly I don't have the expertise to know what im talking about here so take what I say as an uneducated opinion. In my mind, It is a good thing until it isnt. The subsidizing is a band-aid to the real issue of the farming business as it is being unsustainable. Its good that money goes to farmers so they can do it and make a profit or just break even, but if those checks ever stop showing up (again, most likely during a serious depression) then the situation goes from bad to worse as the farming industry collapses and potential starvation sets in. Ideally subsidizing should be treated as startup capital with the end goal being a farming industry that can support itself without government money. As to how that could be achieved I don't know.

However its certainly possible that many buisnesses and families get hooked on the 'free' money and intentionally don't make the proper investments to become self-sufficent to continue collecting, thus subsidizing can be incentive to perpetuate the very thing it should be fixing.

[–] cricket98@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

Can't you make the same argument about any sort of welfare? Things are good until they aren't. Once the money stops flowing through (most likely during a serious depression), those programs will not have the funding to continue. One purpose of paying taxes to the government is for them to use that money to stabilize important industries. I would say food production is a pretty important industry.

[–] SheeEttin@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Nothing, but the subsidies go to stuff that should be replaced with sustainable alternatives. For example, reduce dairy subsidies and apply them to eco-friendly dairy alternatives.

[–] cricket98@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

People don't want dairy alternatives, they want dairy.

[–] SheeEttin@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

People don't really care that much. Make oat milk cheaper and people will start buying it more than cow milk. Make the "real" stuff a luxury, like how everyone loves crab rangoons when there's no crab in them.

[–] CmdrShepard@lemmy.one 2 points 1 year ago

Nothing per se, but many of these farmers get paid not to grow things and have been doing it for so long that they've found ways to game the system to collect money for nothing all the while electing Republicans to office and complaining about 'welfare queens' eating up all our tax dollars.

[–] MossyFeathers@pawb.social 30 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

If I understand correctly from the article, it sounds like they're caught in a loop (sans Abattis family) and need something to change in order to further cut water usage (sans Abattis; because it sounds like they just don't give a fuck).

Basically if I got this right:

They grow a combination of food for humans and feedstock for animals; and most of the water is being consumed by feedstock.

They (sans Abattis family) are aware that they use a shitton of water and have been trying to take steps to reduce their water consumption, but doing so is expensive because of the equipment that's required.

They're able to grow feedstock because water is cheap enough for feedstock to be profitable, which is necessary to reduce their water consumption because growing food alone isn't as profitable enough.

Food isn't profitable enough because apparently the wholesale market value of food is so low that it's hard to make ends meet on food alone, which is why they also grow feedstock using cheap water.

However doing so means they consume a lot more water than they need to, which means they need better ways of getting water for their crops, which is something they're aware of and trying to address, but they need money for that, which comes from feedstock grown using cheap water, which means they consume a lot more water than they need to, and so on.

Then you have the Abattis family who appear to use significantly more water than the rest of the major families and just don't care.


Note: I'm not trying to excuse or justify their excessive water usage, but the article makes it sound like it's more complicated than "just cut their water access".

[–] skuzz@discuss.tchncs.de 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Also, factor in why the water became cheap and/or free. The Department of Reclamation ran around the west over the last century building dams and selling cheap water. These are now generations of family later doing what they have always done. Not apologizing for the behavior of the families, but the US government built this house of cards, they even knew as early as the 1950s that the water wasn't going to support the growth rate, and basically decided, "Eh, that's 50 years from now's problem." Even earlier on they realized the estimation for average Colorado River flow was incorrect. Capitalist "let's just worry about this quarter" mentality led to where we are now, thanks government!

Some arbitrary "fun" facts throughout these learnings:

  • There was actually a plan to build a series of 6 nuclear reactors and a pipeline from the Mississippi River to New Mexico to supplant their water usage.
  • The Ogallala Aquifer that spans from the Dakotas to CO/NM/TX was predicted to run out in a similar 50 year timeframe. Many wells in NM now pump brine instead of water, because spoiler alert: it's tapped.
  • The Great Salt Lake's water level has dropped so low now, that they have heavy metal dust storms. Unfortunately, this does not sound as good as it sounds.
[–] Franzia@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 1 year ago

Heavy metal dust storms do sound pretty fucking cool tho

[–] abbotsbury@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Wish we could just grow food and sell at-cost while we all pitched in to subsidize the wages of those involved, but I guess wasting more water than some states use just to make a profit is a good alternative system.

[–] Smokeydope@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I bet we will see more and more farmers turn to pot and hemp as the industry grows. I bet that the wholesale margins on good pot are a lot better than that of food

[–] Noodle07@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

Land of the free water

[–] Greyghoster@aussie.zone 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yet again irrigating to feed cattle which apparently only 10% of people eat.

[–] Letstakealook@lemm.ee 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It's 12% of Americans eat half the beef consumed every day. Of course, that 12% is mostly people 50-65.

[–] SheDiceToday@eslemmy.es 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Strange to imagine. I think I have beef once every two weeks or so? I wonder where that puts me on the scale of beef eaters.

[–] Letstakealook@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

Far from that group, for sure.

[–] Franzia@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Is gen X addicted to steak? Wtf?

[–] Letstakealook@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago

Idk, but it really is a crazy stat. Especially when you take into account that the US only exports 11% of domestically produced beef and we import additional beef. 12% of the population appears to be subsisting off pretty much just beef.

[–] Madison420@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Alright I'm dyslexic but I never saw the reznicks mentioned and they have to be a top family. Iirc they still own the California water Bank.

[–] RubberElectrons@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I don't know how to resolve this kind of issue without it looking like a transfer of wealth from us fellow tax-payers to these big farm families:

  • Pay to purchase their water rights, and provide a place in a wetter area of California to resume growing,
  • or let them stay in place, pay to reduce their water usage

Or we spend real money and quality of life to illegally deny them water, but all our food prices go up, nevermind the legal costs.

At some point it won't matter what's legal or not, we need water to drink.

This is seemingly an expensive problem to resolve, but two key items need to be cared for, no matter the decision: skilled farmers who knows how to produce need to be kept working if they choose, and we need to start thinking in a more than quarterly manner to plan for long term success. Who thought growing food in the desert was a good idea?

[–] UnspecificGravity@discuss.tchncs.de 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

C) charge them the for the water they are pulling out of a river they don't actually own.

They decided to farm in a desert because they could pass the enormous cost of doing so to other people. They aren't owed shit.

[–] RubberElectrons@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sure, that's a given. But longer term.... I think we gotta get people out of the desert in terms of farming. Trade forests for farms? I dislike the hell out of that. There's gotta be something else.

[–] UnspecificGravity@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

These farms produce alfalfa for animal feed, almost exclusively. We just don't need the amount of meat that we currently consume, it's just about the least efficient way to turn water into food. We could just lose these farms entirely and it would just make steak and dairy products a bit more expensive, which they probably should be given the massive environmental impact from producing them.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/12/colorado-drought-water-alfalfa-farmers-conservation

[–] RubberElectrons@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

All valid points in my opinion, I'm just trying to think of what we need to set as goals for California's farming operations long term. I'm a resident here and I want this place to succeed.

Success could certainly look like cheaper fruits and veggies vs meat and byproducts if the land were guided to being food producing vs feedcrops.

[–] TenderfootGungi@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Meanwhile, the government pays farmers where it rains and hay grows well to leave fields barren. It gives farmers welfare payments and increases grain prices.