this post was submitted on 05 Feb 2024

189 points (95.7% liked)

News

22890 readers

4783 users here now

Welcome to the News community!

Rules:

1. Be civil

Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.

2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.

Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.

3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.

Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.

4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.

Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.

5. Only recent news is allowed.

Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.

6. All posts must be news articles.

No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.

7. No duplicate posts.

If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.

8. Misinformation is prohibited.

Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.

9. No link shorteners.

The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.

10. Don't copy entire article in your post body

For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.

founded 1 year ago

MODERATORS

rjc@lemmy.world

Thekingoflorda@lemmy.world

gedaliyah@lemmy.world

Blackbeard@lemmy.world

little_cow@lemmy.world

jeffw@lemmy.world

189

Here's how 2 sentences in the Constitution rose from obscurity to ensnare Donald Trump (apnews.com)

submitted 7 months ago by girlfreddy@lemmy.ca to c/news@lemmy.world

45 comments fedilink hide all child comments

It took months before the first mention of Section 3 in a public document. Free Speech For People, a Massachusetts-based liberal nonprofit, sent letters to top election officials in all 50 states in June 2021, warning them not to place Trump on the ballot should he run again in 2024 because he had violated the provision.

None of them took action, part of a general silence in reaction to the group’s arguments.

“People were just treating it as something that was not serious,” recalled John Bonifaz, the group’s co-founder.

By January 2022, the group decided to test Section 3 in court.

Looking for a lower-level defendant, Sherman’s organization zeroed in on Couy Griffin. The subject of one of the earliest Jan. 6 prosecutions, Griffin already has a rich legal record. He was was recorded in a restricted area of the U.S. Capitol as head of a group called Cowboys for Trump. Griffin was convicted of illegally entering the Capitol, but acquitted of engaging in disorderly conduct.

He still served as a commissioner in a rural New Mexico county, which kept CREW’s attention on him. On Sept. 6, 2022, a New Mexico judge ordered Griffin removed from his position. It was the first time in more than 100 years an official had been removed under Section 3. Griffin has appealed to the Supreme Court.

top 45 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] ono@lemmy.ca 53 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution

Section 3: Disqualification from office for insurrection or rebellion

Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may, by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 22 points 7 months ago (5 children)

The question ultimately whether the President is an "officer of the US". Seeing as the President holds an office, I think they should be, but who knows what the current crop in the Supreme Court might twist things to.

[–] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 47 points 7 months ago (2 children)

That's not a question. The authors of the amendment unambiguously stated that they also meant rhe President. President Andrew Jackson, president at the time the 14th Amendment was ratified, explicitly referred to himself as either the “chief executive officer of the United States” or “chief civil executive officer of the United States.” He was referred to as the same during his impeachment.

Antonin Scalia also wrote in an opinion in 2014 that the President was an officer of the United States.

It's a bad faith argument with no merit. Of course, that doesn't mean the court won't agree with it, because the current SCOTUS is illegitimate and fully corrupt.

[–] HandBreadedTools@lemmy.world 5 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Andrew Jackson was president like 20 years before the civil war my guy. Ulysses S. Grant was president when the 14th Amendment was ratified in 1868. I'm not really sure how you thought otherwise. Regardless, your other point about his reference to himself as an officer is irrelevant anyways because that's not what determines him to be an officer of the court.

The actual reason is that when the 14th Amendment was being signed, the specific question of "why does it not mention president" was asked nearly verbatim. One of the writers of the Amendment, who I'm forgetting the name of, replied to them by asking them to read over the part where it says "any officer". We know this because we have the minutes from that day, we have the transcription as it was recorded by hand at the time.

A federal court already determined Trump to have engaged in insurrection. By all accounts, he should be barred from running.

[–] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

You're right, my mistake, it was Andrew Johnson. Grant was president by the time the amendmnt was fully ratified.

[–] HandBreadedTools@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

You originally said "at the time the 14th Amendment was ratified". But fair enough, I suppose. I understand what you mean.

[–] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago

You're right, I definitely was wrong. I also called him Jackson, so clearly I'm not a reliable source of accurate historical information.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 3 points 7 months ago

Yeah the current SCOTUS could be expected to twist the words any which way. Hopefully not, but it wouldn't be out of character.

[–] nulluser@programming.dev 25 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

I honestly can't imagine how anyone could convince themselves that, if someone could go back and ask the authors of Section 3 if they thought it applied to the office of the president, that they would say, "No" . It's ridiculous to me that this is even something we're discussing.

ETA: Not disagreeing with you. Just complaining.

[–] CosmicSploogeDrizzle@lemmy.world 9 points 7 months ago (1 children)

You can look up the minutes from the exact meeting where they discuss the wording of the amendment. There is an official record of these discussions. This exact question was asked and it was confirmed that the President is included. I don't have a link atm, but someone posted it in another thread.

[–] sin_free_for_00_days@sopuli.xyz 7 points 7 months ago (1 children)

During the debate over the amendment, Sen. Reverdy Johnson of Maryland was troubled by the omission. Did that mean it didn’t apply to President Johnson?

Sen. Justin Morrill of Vermont assured Sen. Johnson that the Reconstruction Committee had no such intention. “Let me call the Senator’s attention to the words ‘or hold any office, civil or military under the United States’, ” Morrill said.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Comforting.

However, the cynic in me would point out that referring someone to previous part of the text doesn't explicitly include the President in the latter part. Someone who swore an oath as an officer could not become President, but if the President is not considered an officer and that person was never an officer in any other capacity, they could still slip through the cracks.

That's quite clearly the wrong interpretation, and I feel dirty for suggesting it, but there is still a small amount of uncertainty in the letter of it all.

[–] sin_free_for_00_days@sopuli.xyz 2 points 7 months ago

I think it's crystal clear, but I too have watched even lower courts twist themselves in circles to skirt justice for trump. I'm sure there will be a delay at least until after he's won/lost. Which is just disgusting.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 3 points 7 months ago

I agree also, it's a ridiculous insinuation. But it's also the most likely way that Trump might get off.

[–] SoylentBlake@lemm.ee 15 points 7 months ago (2 children)

The president is the commander-in-chief of the military. That sounds pretty officer-y to me.

I'm pretty sure the military boys would agree.

Wait, since the military has its own law, if Trump somehow avoids justice (most likely by delaying until he could parden himself) could the Postmaster General arrest him and hand him over to the military for court martial? Sentenced and executed same afternoon?

[–] FlowVoid@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

By law, the commander-in-chief is a civilian. This means they are not subject to the UCMJ and cannot be court-martialed.

[–] SoylentBlake@lemm.ee 1 points 7 months ago

Yea, that's right, I was just stream of conscious spitballin

[–] billiam0202@lemmy.world -4 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Unfortunately, the lay definition of "officer" isn't the same as the Constitutional definition. Also, the entire phrase "officer of the United States" is not the same as the positional title of just "officer."

The Constitution refers to "officers of the United States" more than once, but each time (excepting the Fourteenth Amendment) they're described as positions appointed by the President. The theory is that since the Constitution refers to them as appointed by the President, the Presidency itself cannot be an officer of the US since the President is elected.

Here's a law article from Seth Barrett Tillman explaining that position. (Page 21 is where the relevant argument begins.)

[–] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 7 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Tillman conveniently ignores literally all of the historical and contextual evidence that doesn't support his bullshit.

[–] billiam0202@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I'm not in the legal profession, so what context or historical evidence did he miss?

Also to be clear, I'm not saying that Tillman makes a convincing argument, or one that I agree with, only that it's an argument as to why the President might not be an "officer of the United States."

[–] FlowVoid@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

The historical context is that during the ratification proceedings, a senator basically spoke up and said "Hey I think we forgot to include the President and we can't have that" and another one replied "Don't worry, he counts as an officer".

And remember, when the SCOTUS originalists interpret the constitution, their number one consideration is "What did the people who wrote this particular amendment mean by this word / phrase?" In this case, the answer is clear.

[–] SoylentBlake@lemm.ee 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I'd love to see a suit taking a corporation to the mat in that in its mere modern existence it's usurped the founders intent...

Which was a frothing contempt for them. They recognized they were helpful for big projects that society needed, so a charter would be granted to say...build a bridge...and upon completion immediately disbanded.

Id call this the greatest court in history if they restored that. I think the earth rotations reversing is more likely.

[–] FlowVoid@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

It's not necessarily the founders intent that matters. It's whoever wrote the text in question.

So when interpreting a law about corporations written in 1930, what matters is how "corporation" was defined in 1930 not 1787.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

"Don't worry, he counts as an officer".

They didn't literally say that though. They simply referred to the previous part that said "or hold any office in the US". It's pretty obvious that's what he meant, but it isn't explicitly what was said or written.

[–] FlowVoid@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago

Originalists have to rely on what words "obviously" meant at the time, because "explicit" definitions are often unavailable.

[–] sik0fewl@kbin.social 5 points 7 months ago

Well, there's also the part about not holding any office.

[–] Rivalarrival@lemmy.today 5 points 7 months ago (1 children)

The other issue is that the constitution does not put the exact words "support the constitution" in the presidential oath of office, and Trump took no other oath. He's argued the absence of those words is conspicuous, as all others - including the VP - are obligated to say them.

I think SCOTUS is hoping he chokes on a pork chop before March and doesn't have to make a ruling.

[–] girlfreddy@lemmy.ca 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

The other issue is that the constitution does not put the exact words "support the constitution" in the presidential oath of office.

Yes they did and yes he said it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SJmrlMFHgPA

[–] Rivalarrival@lemmy.today 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

He swore to "preserve, protect, and defend the constitution." Article II Section 1 Clause 8 specifies the exact oath the President Elect must take, and that oath does not include the word "support".

It's a bullshit argument which is defeated by Article VI Clause 3, so long as the President is considered an "executive officer". But, his lawyers are using the different wording in Article II and Article VI to support their contention that the presidency is not an executive office.

[–] girlfreddy@lemmy.ca 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Going after the word "support" is semantic at best and any lawyer would be able to blow up that argument in a heartbeat.

[–] Rivalarrival@lemmy.today 3 points 7 months ago

In a fair court, yes. In a court packed with Trump appointees, I dunno.

[–] Tramort@programming.dev 2 points 7 months ago

The Roberts Court makes a mockery of the law

[–] ironsoap@lemmy.one 49 points 7 months ago (2 children)

The end is the most enlighting vs the legal losses:

With most jurisdictions dodging the questions at the heart of the case, it can create a misleading impression that things have gone well for the former president.

“The cases have gone poorly for Trump,” Derek Muller, a Notre Dame law professor who has followed the cases closely, wrote Friday in a blog post. “He lost on the merits in the only two jurisdictions that got to the merits, Colorado and Maine.”

[–] shalafi@lemmy.world 40 points 7 months ago

He didn't lose Colorado. That judge may well have handed his ass to him.

She ruled that Trump factually engaged in insurrection. In our legal system, a higher court has to take that finding as fact. Her decision was getting appealed no matter what, so she threw a solid "fuck you" in there.

[–] LodeMike@lemmy.today 10 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Everyone is just waiting for the Supreme Court.

[–] Witchfire@lemmy.world 8 points 7 months ago

I can see them waiting until after the election

[–] magnor@lemmy.magnor.ovh 6 points 7 months ago

Which will somehow rule that insurrection is ok, as long as Republicans do it.

[–] Monument@lemmy.sdf.org 29 points 7 months ago

That’s great in theory.

If the Supreme Court chooses to hear the case before the election.

The U.S. has had numerous elections in the past few years held with maps deemed to be unconstitutional because the courts either decided ‘too late’ or did not require those drawing the maps to adhere to a deadline.
In North Carolina, after the 2020 map was tossed, they used it anyway because the state republicans did not offer a new map. When they won big under the illegally gerrymandered map, which included changing the makeup of their state Supreme Court, they redrew the maps to be even more discriminatory - with no normal recourse for citizens to fix them. A federal panel adopted the issue last year, referring it to the U.S. Supreme Court, which despite hearing arguments 8 months ago has so far not issued a ruling.

My confidence level in the rule of law is incredibly low right now.

[–] RotaryKeyboard@lemmy.sdf.org 19 points 7 months ago

His research was published eight days before the insurrection? This man is clearly a time traveler from a dystopian future who was sent back in time to stop Donald Trump.

[–] littlebluespark@lemmy.world 10 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Fucking AND‽

[–] girlfreddy@lemmy.ca 7 points 7 months ago (2 children)

There's precedent now. 👍

[–] littlebluespark@lemmy.world 4 points 7 months ago

Which means fuck all as it'll just get booted out by the GOP-held Supreme Court either before or especially after the walking talking shitstain is back in office.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 1 points 7 months ago

It still needs to go to the supreme court.

[–] ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works 7 points 7 months ago

Imagine if the American government had moved quickly and impeached and convicted trump and removed him from office in January 2021 immediately instead of just doing as liyyle as possible and waiting and hoping for the problem to fix itself by having private groups slowly try to bring court cases to SCOTUS.

[–] maness300@lemmy.world -3 points 7 months ago

Downvoted for clickbait.