this post was submitted on 24 May 2026
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The reason the FCC is only allowing the sale of state approved routers in the US?

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[–] RegularJoe@lemmy.world 133 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

"This technology turns every router into a potential means for surveillance," warns Julian Todt from KASTEL. "If you regularly pass by a café that operates a WiFi network, you could be identified there without noticing it and be recognized later -- for example by public authorities or companies."

Later...

Inexpensive or older routers either don’t store history at all or keep it for a short time.

Newer models can store more information for more extended periods.

https://www.thetechwire.com/how-long-does-a-router-store-history/

[–] morto@piefed.social 79 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

We used to recommend people to run the newest stuff possible, but we came to a point that maybe it's better for us to keep with older tech for a good while

[–] mecen@lemmy.ca 11 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Or go to more civilized countries for vacation to get not backdoored hardware.

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[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 34 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (6 children)

From what I've just read, the tech doesn't seem ready to identify people yet. It can supposedly detect hand gestures, but facial recognition I seriously doubt. But that's probably just a matter of improving the tech. See this article for more info.

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[–] Salamanderwizard@lemmy.world 102 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Have fun watching me be balls deep in my partner, fed boys. Be jelly cause you can't fuck like me.

[–] Mac@mander.xyz 21 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I'm already envious 🙂‍↕️

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[–] TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world 90 points 3 weeks ago (10 children)

It would be great if there were some open source tool kits for this. If the technology is going to exist it should be in the hands of the people.

[–] Snoopey@lemmy.dbzer0.com 90 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)
[–] Mora@pawb.social 18 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Damn, I thought I called it 8 months ago, but that was about reading heart rates using wifi...

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[–] grue@lemmy.world 30 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

Yeah, if this shit has to exist, at least let me use it for presence detection in Home Assistant without having to buy separate sensors or something!

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[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 14 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (5 children)

If you're technical you might like enjoy this article that explains how the tracking works. Basically the router can perform math on the interference created by objects moving around the room. It seems like this would have to be part of the router firmware, which doesn't sound like a standard feature. But if it is, the fix would be to install modified firmware with that function disabled. The smoking gun will be if somebody gets into DMCA trouble for doing this.

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[–] DarrinBrunner@lemmy.world 59 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (11 children)

From what I've read this is built into the required wifi router for Xfinity. I discovered this when I signed up for Xfinity fiber, had the fiber installed and setup and then cancelled it the same day, because of this and not being able to buy and run my own hardware, and needing to install an app on my phone to manage the router, and apparently not being able to choose my DNS. They required that I rent their hardware for an additional $15/mo. Oh well, at least fiber is in the house now, if anyone wants it in the future. I sure won't be paying them to spy on me.

Fuck Comcast, still.

[–] FEIN@lemmy.world 15 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

app to manage router

This shit was a pain in the ass and now learning about this makes me feel even more pissed off as a customer

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[–] Blackmist@feddit.uk 53 points 2 weeks ago (5 children)

"Oh my goodness, this is a nightmare" typed everyone into their government approved location recording devices that can show them cats and boobs.

[–] prenatal_confusion@feddit.org 13 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)
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[–] RedGreenBlue@lemmy.zip 46 points 3 weeks ago (9 children)

Product idea: clothing with jaged edges and radio absorbing plates.

[–] ChaoticEntropy@feddit.uk 22 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)
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[–] ifmu@lemmy.world 15 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Don’t give Musk the idea of the CyberShirt.

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[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 40 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (3 children)

Very interesting concept. I was curious about how in the hell this could be done. This article explains the general method.

When an inert object like a person moves around between the router and stationary connected devices like computers and printers, it interferes with the signal. The pattern of interference plus math can be used to plot the movement of the object - and even measure subtle changes like hand gestures. Home security software from companies like Xfinity can already use this tech to send you an alert when something is moving around in your house, without needing additional hardware. Imagine an informercial where a guy holds up a handful of "clumsy motion sensors" with wires sticking out of them, and "confusing instructions". Not if you just let your router do it!

As far as being a new and sinister means of surveillance, evil companies could already theoretically tap into anybody's motion sensors or security cams. The difference with WiFi tracking is that you wouldn't necessarily know it's there.

[–] fleck@lemmy.world 22 points 3 weeks ago (9 children)

That's using CSI though. The article said the researches specifically did not utilize CSI.

But regarding CSI: I evaluated that as a small part of my Master's thesis and it worked pretty OK for motion detection but not for classifying other activities, at least not on a SISO link. For more complex stuff you would need both a MIMO access point (router) and device (e.g. phone). Also, you need to constantly transmit messages to get up-to-date CSI, which is not great for power consumption as well as cluttering the communication channel. There are some other constraints, especially regarding noise. E.g. I managed to completely destroy the CSI spectrogram by turning on a microwave oven. There is 802.11bf in development, which is supposed to standardize this, because currently using CSI is pretty much a "hack", as it is not intended for sensing. Once this is widely adopted, I would start being worried, but not right now.

This is from my thesis:

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[–] TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world 30 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (5 children)

Pretty sure this is old news? It's basically sonar, which The Dark Knight predicted in the film.

Edit: a word

[–] BeUnique@lemmy.zip 28 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

That's cool and all but if true, why use an animated photo instead of a real life example?

[–] skisnow@lemmy.ca 54 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I'm not sure what you think an "example" would look like. It's not taking a photo of you, it's measuring what's distinctive about the way you personally mess up radio signals and how it differs from how other people mess them up. Internally it's just a ton of numbers.

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[–] FiskFisk33@startrek.website 14 points 3 weeks ago

a real life example? you mean like a photo of a person next to a router?

[–] LiveLM@lemmy.zip 24 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (2 children)

Ok now what router do I buy and what firmware do I flash to plug this into Home Assistant?

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[–] LillyPip@lemmy.ca 22 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

Comcast Is watching you masturbate. Awesome.

[–] SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 27 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I mean, they kinda already were.

[–] turtlesareneat@piefed.ca 15 points 3 weeks ago

Especially if they've been opening all those videos I've sent

[–] lemmie689@lemmy.sdf.org 21 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)
[–] Melobol@lemmy.ml 22 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

That means "yesterday's spy tech" that now they will leak to public, because they have a way better way.
I'm not sure of the current state of my tinfoil hat.

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[–] Corvidae@lemmy.world 21 points 3 weeks ago (6 children)

Building codes should probably include Faraday-cage type shielding.

[–] skibidi@lemmy.world 20 points 3 weeks ago (5 children)

That would prevent cell signals from inside, making it harder to (e.g.) call the fire department, or an ambulance.

[–] Capable_Coping@piefed.social 14 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

the return of landlines is nigh

[–] AstralPath@lemmy.ca 14 points 3 weeks ago

Honestly, we'd be better off at this point.

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[–] Treczoks@lemmy.world 18 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (2 children)

The question with mandating US made routers may be either to protect citizens from foreign attacks - or to make sure every US router is a router with a government-approved backdoor.

On which option would you bet?

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[–] einlander@lemmy.world 17 points 3 weeks ago

Comcast routers already have a feature to detect people's presence.

[–] mattreb@feddit.it 17 points 2 weeks ago (11 children)

If you read the article ( https://dl.acm.org/doi/epdf/10.1145/3719027.3765062 ) they are testing this in an EXTREMELY controlled enviroment and directed subjects... I have my doubts that this could provide any insight on whether this is even feaseble for public surveillance, let alone effective...

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[–] GreenKnight23@lemmy.world 15 points 2 weeks ago (9 children)

and this is why you should flood your home with as many APs as possible. I have 17 APs running in my 1000sqft house.

can't find shit if it's too noisy.

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[–] RoidingOldMan@lemmy.world 15 points 3 weeks ago

The Dark Knight tech was a lot closer than we realized in 2008.

[–] Comrade_Squid@lemmy.ml 14 points 2 weeks ago

If I was a capitalist, knowing I am few and and my power only comes from the resources I own, resources stolen from the masses. I would use my stolen wealth to safe guard my own class interests against the masses. Hence we see surveillance capitalism.

[–] Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net 14 points 3 weeks ago (5 children)

How do they identify a particular person though? I get you could see people as present or not or moving around the room, but it's insane that they would be able to tell facial features etc.

[–] BussyCat@lemmy.world 13 points 3 weeks ago

A paper from around a decade ago talked about using WiFi to identify key strokes so with large data models we have today I would assume they could get pretty good fidelity on a person. Maybe not enough for “beyond a reasonable doubt” but probably enough where your WiFi company is selling your data on what you do at home

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[–] CosmoNova@lemmy.world 13 points 3 weeks ago

It‘s like the phone sonar tech from the Dark Knight everyone said was total BS but totally real…

[–] Clbull@lemmy.world 12 points 2 weeks ago

At this point I'd prefer the Chinese routers.

[–] desmosthenes@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago

back to ethernet where possible

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