Ask Lemmy

UK based here.

I was in scouts, and my little minion is now also in the lower levels.

I personally think it fills a critical need for a lot of kids. Schools are locked hard into the national curriculum, and don't have time for the more character and skill building events. Scouts cover this nicely.

Regarding my local group. So far, my experience has been excellent. The kids adore it and they are doing a lot of fun learning. E.g. recently they did fire lighting. Learning to use matches, and basic fire safety around candles etc is an important skill. Learning as a group also means they learn from each other's (minor) mistakes.

The group is also mixed gender. While it's mostly boys, there are enough girls that it's not intimidating for either gender. Its activities are "boy focused", so most of the girls are of the tomboy mindset.

There are a few religious aspects attached to it. The pledge/promise mentions God. In practice it's mostly non religious. What religious elements there are, are quite inoffensive. I've also noted that the older groups have a choice of pledge, including a non-religious/atheistic option.

Also, regarding some of the scandals, the UK government now has quite rigorous procedures in place to protect children. Enhanced DBS checks are required for adults in a supervisor roll. While not perfect, these checks stop someone jumping from area to area to avoid their past acts. Parents, teachers and other helpers are also a lot hotter on spotting minor discrepancies before they can escalate. It's just done calmly and quietly, to avoid accidental witch hunts.

Basically, my minion loves scouts, and I am completely comfortable with them attending.

I will give some international perspective. I'm an active scout in germany in my 30s. I started at age 7. Many years I was a group leader. For 3 years I was a chairman of our troop (no idea if that is the correct translation from the german "Vorstand").

German scouts are very different from many other countries, especially the US. We have like 4 big scouting organisations and many small ones. Our structure and culture is very much influenced by history (if someone is interested, I can also write more about that) mainly the Third Reich and the takeover of the Hitler Youth.

Even the (in my view) more traditionalistic BDP (Bund deutscher Pfadfinder) would be considered pronounced demilitaristic. I'm part of the DPSG (Deutsche Pfadfinderschaft St. Georg), which is coeducational since the 70s and expressively LGBTQIA+ allied. It is important to us, that our official scouts shirt is not a uniform, because a uniform sounds too militaristic. We don't get badges for personal achievements, but we collect badges from places and certain activities (like the Light of Peace of Bethelehem). In our organisational structure it is difficult for the people higher up to force anything upon local troops (apart from really big and important things, that touch our common ruleset), so in that sense it is somewhat decentralized. We have no "pledge of allegiance" or a flag ceremony (I have seen this once with the BSA, when I visited a troop at an international school in japan).

Our work is often like other youth work, helping kids and teenagers to develop and have a good stand in life. We add quite some meaning to our groups. In every age group the members get a scarf with the colors of the age group. Though at our local troop (this is different for every troop), we connect this with what we call a promise (Versprechen). The kids have to think about, what they want and what they feel for themselves and the group. In a nice ceremony they make their promise to the group and the group makes a promise to them. This can go rather deep for the teenagers and means a lot. Additionally the scouts are a good opportunity for kids and teenagers to experience time without their parents (as a rule we try hard not to have any of the parents being active in the work with the members, only as supports for keeping up our work).

We are directly connected to the catholic church. Their influence on our work is normally very low. Its more about the structure (like having the organisation levels attached to diozeses) and we do have things like church service. Though that typically plays only a small role in the troops. Our troop got mostly secular in the past 20 years, though we still honor our connection to the church. Here is also important, that the catholic and protestant churches in Germany are way less strict than most american churches and they are currently opening up more. The catholic church in germany has big influence (owning a lot of properties, church money collected through tax), though they are shrinking in numbers rapidly. There are also progressive grassroot movements like Maria 2.0. The church now is on the so called "synodal path", which is a way to go more grassroots and change based on the people, not based on the vatican (which of course got our bishops scolded by the pope/curie). So even they are changing here, bit by bit.

The DPSG also has problems regarding youth wellbeing (abuse of power, sexual harassment and rape), though its not as big as with the BSA. This year the results of an independend study was published, analyzing the problems in the DPSG. Since the child abuse scandal of the catholic church (was very big here in germany), all group leaders (and now also every other adult in the troop, whos getting in contact with kids) has to do a training (at least 6h) and refresh that every few years (with at least 3h), to learn whats OK and what is not OK, but also to be sensitive to how child abusers work and how to spot problematic behavior. Now with the study results we are working to restructure our local troop life, to make it difficult for abusers to get to their victims. The study named the missing procedure to ensure child safety standards across the organization as a major problem. And also that locally often single individuals have too much social power through their passionate work and their reputation. I'm now older than nearly all group leaders and I have a good reputation. I myself have experienced, that this gives me social power and I actively decided to withdraw quite a bit to let the younger generation handle things, like they think is best. I'm only in a supporting, sometimes advisory position in the troop. It is important to be aware of your own social power and deciding good on when not to use it.

All in all the scouts like they are done here (in germany and locally for my troop) are a really great way to help young people develop social skills, life skills and life long deep friendships. We are doing a lot of good in the society. Many victims of abuse (in the church and the DPSG) have expressed, that it is most important, how the organization is handling the problems. I think our reaction is a good one and we work hard to change, what has to change for providing a more save environment. Every parent, that thinks about letting their kid go to a youth organization, should question that organization how they are handling this topic. Learn about how the local troop is doing things, how they handle their tradition and structure; then decide, if that is enough for you.

In girl scouts we just sold cookies, or met to talk about the cookies, or for our moms to get the cookies.

So with the child rape on the boys end, and exploitation on the girls end, I'd say it's not good. I wouldn't trust a man involved in leading boy scouts with my kids. I mean, my sons elementary school coach just got fired for staring at 5th grade girls, and they look for that kind of thing hard-core before hiring.

It's cool you could do that and didn't get raped like the other boys, but your family could have been teaching you how to exist in nature and do neat things.

It's not something that fits with the world we have now, the world is more "caters to the predator," rather than "let's do something nice for the kids."

Boy scouts need to find something better to sell than popcorn to match the girl scout cookies.

Mid-2010s Eagle Scout here. I think Boy Scouts as a whole did teach me a lot of genuinely important skills, both physical and mentally, but that was mostly due in my opinion to my troop being more unconventionally scout-ran compared to the other troops in our council, which leaned more adult-ran. We had pretty much free reign over our itinerary and direction as a troop, so if decided we didn’t want to do something or we wanted to, but didn’t plan for it, it didn’t happen. The inverse with stuff we wanted to do and then it happening was also true. That taught me a lot more about life than any merit badge or rank advancement could.

Unfortunately being an Eagle Scout isn’t something I always bring up when talking about myself. I think part of it is all the scandals that went public like you said, but also another part is, again in my experience, “Boy Scout” carries a message about my ideals and politics that aren’t actually in line with my ideals and politics. Either you were really into nature (minority) or you were really into the wrong side of WWII (majority).

I honestly don't really have one. I'm sure one could think of numerous benefits and dangers.

My son has been in Cub Scouts for a few years and I help lead the pack. It's been good for him and his friends, but fuck nationals. If our local pack agreed with the national organization's right-wing politics and religious mandate I wouldn't feel comfortable with it. But we make it pretty clear to the parents that we just ignore the rules that we think are not in line with our values.

I don't love being part of an org with values that contradict ours, but if we abandon every problematic organization it will be very hard to find things to be a part of. And we can discuss with the kids the things that we don't agree with, and also work from within the organization to improve it. If nationals ever came down on us we would probably just join one of the other scouting organizations that doesn't hold right-wing views. And if the rest of the pack leader is caved to nationals I would pull my son out of the program.

Cub Scouts has a reasonably good education program for keeping kids safe from abuse, and it's a requirement each year for parents to discuss these things with their kids. So most of the conversations I've had with my son about abuse has been because the Cub Scouts require it. In that sense, I feel like it has prepared him somewhat to get himself out of a bad situation if he ever find himself in one.

We'll see if he wants to continue at the troop level. I will support him if he wants to, and the conversations we've had due to Cub Scouts make it less likely that anything abusive will happen while he's camping with them.

I’m have three kids in scouting and I’m an ASM myself. I find it’s very dependant on the troop. I didn’t have a very good experience as a kid with mine, so I didn’t think I’d bring my kids into it. But when they were interested, we found a troop that turned out to be everything mine wasn’t as a kid. We accepted girls before it was officially allowed, and we’ve built a very strong, open and positive community. Enough that when they asked me to become an ASM, I happily accepted since my opinion of scouts had completely turned around.

There are still some pockets of the old guard that don’t like the direction of scouting these days. But with a good troop, it can be an amazing experience. My kids have grown and learned so much from their involvement. Me too.

I learned a lot in scouts, but I wasn't comfortable with the nationalism, pseudo military and Christian overtones.

I just went camping instead.

Life scout here. Wouldn't trade it for the world. It was a huge positive force on my childhood and created lifelong friendships.

When i was a kid, i was so enthused by the idea of scouting. When i finally joined up i realized quick it was all a front to recruit kids to the church and I got out of there as fast as I could. I have hated the scouts ever since

Great experience. Mother was a den mother. Did a bunch of crafts. Then boy scouts and I never progressed any badges. Was fun! There were two troops that behaved very differently in our town. One was all about rules and mine was all about relaxing and letting us kids do whatever we want most of the time. I understand the greater Scouting org was and is… problematic. Personal experience, it was good.

like a log of orgs like this I feel the parent orgs take to much from the locals when fund raising. the basic idea is good but its hard to do stuff like this without abuse. The real question is how they handle it when they find out.

I'm a fellow Eagle scout and I have an intrinsic bias toward other scouts that have completed their Eagle. It shows me that they hold values consistent or similar to my own. Namely the scout law and oath. Scouting taught me a deep emotional connection to nature and the way I interact with it. As with any organization, there's going to be failures and tribulations, but I treat BSA guidelines as I do Catholic morality. It is what I make of it and if I take the core values that are meant to be gleaned from what it's supposed to teach, then it's difficult to argue that it's had a negative impact on me or the people around me.

I would love to see a scouting Renaissance in the next few decades with the inclusion of women and queer members. There's few other organizations or programs that are as well equipped to teach youth about nature and what it has to offer.

I was in scouts very briefly. Our troop/chapter/whatever it was lasted less than a year because the scout leaders were caught embezzling funds and everything got shut down.

From my limited experience in scouts, I found it boring.

I think it's great!

It's an essential part of any battle. You need to get an idea of enemy numbers and movements before you formulate a strategy.

I was a scout, I made it to life then stopped going to church around 15. Even though it was largely connected to church, I remember it fondly. Scout is some of my best memories.

I think it's a shame that they have fallen, however, I understand why it has.

Yes, I was a scout when I was a kid and consider it a valuable experience.

Yes, I also encouraged my kids to sign up and I believe they had good/valuable experience as well. Some of that overlapped the scandal, but as an actively involved parent , I didn’t really see where things could go wrong.

One of the differences (maybe this is specific to our pack/troop) was no burgers and dogs allowed on campouts because they’re too easy: you’re not learning anything. They were really good about different experiences and learning

To the contrary, the response to the scandal was really frustrating. Scouting was pretty strict that there must always be a second adult involved in any activity. I get the reason, but for example, I couldn’t supervise cooking on the grill in public in the middle of camp in front of dozens of witnesses, unless there was a second adult?

I was a scout. All the way from age 6 until around mid highschool, where I really fell off it. I think overall it had a positive impact on my life. I got to learn about nature and bushcraft and first aid and things like that. I think the worst part was that a number of adults really pushed the "military" shit. Like they wanted to larp as drill seargents to a bunch of 12 year olds. Having too much fun was generally looked down upon. As if we were camping with our friends for some other reason. When I heard the scouts were going co-ed, I thought that would be a push in the right direction. When I was going, most of the leaders were very old. Pretty much all white men. Many were great, but the entire place could use some diversity of thought.

Was one of the only organizations I knew of that was kid-run, with kids deciding what to do and how to do it. Great to get away from parents and go out camping once a month.

Was never a scout but was in the Air Training Corps which is kinda like the teenage air military equivalent (at least in those with "Royal" in their name). It felt like "RAF-lite", and I think many of my corps ended up in the service after they completed school. Taught lots of skills including firearms, tracking, stealth operations, radio operations, flying, bridge crossing, capturing bases, teamwork, abseiling and how to march, follow orders, hierarchical teams, hospital corners and polish brass and shoes.

Also, a great place for a bunch of teens of all persuasions to hang out together and get together in some instances.

I begged and pleaded with my dad to take me to scouts, which he wasn't really inclined to do. Finally I convinced him and at the first meeting, after like 20 minutes I turned to him and said, "I'm bored, can we go?" If I'm being honest, I think I just wanted the uniform.

Between the outdoor education program at my school and going camping with the families I grew up around, I feel I got most of the skills you learn in scouts: I could tie all kinds of knots, start a campfire, use a map and compass, ride a horse, first aid skills, CPR, etc. I think stuff like that is wonderful for kids to learn, along with the values of honesty, thrift, helping others, and stuff like that are great. But I'm not sure you need to be in a regimental organization to get that. I learned it all from hippies in a coed environment.

So, some of the stuff seems a little old-fashioned and for that and similar reasons, I didn't encourage my kid to join Scouts. I should have taught him orienteering, though. That young man couldn't find his way out of a paper sack.

I volunteer with them here in the UK after being a youth member most of the way through. I know our respective organisations differ in some ways and I don't know a great deal about USA Scouts.

I think we do legitimately help young people gain life skills and care for others. If I had kids, they'd be on the waiting list well in advance of joining age.

I'm proud that we're an LGBT+ and neurodivergence inclusive space, by national policy as well as practical local example in many places. I have seen variations between groups though and I don't think we get enough training on that. I would also say we're pretty bad at race and class inclusion.

The biggest downside I feel is organisationally. We suffer from all the usual issues of a big organisation including internal politicking, shitty managers, disconnect between different teams, and putting the organisation's interests above its professed values.

I'm a former scout and current adult leader in BSA. It isn't for everyone, but for the kids who click with the program I have seen it be a very positive activity in their lives. Individual experiences can vary greatly depending on the immediate peer group and the environment set by the adult leaders.

I am very glad that BSA has opened up to girls and LGBTQ+ members, and watered down the religious aspects. The organization is late to change but moving in the right direction. I also appreciate the current focus on youth safety and abuse prevention, though like the Catholic church it's unfortunately too little too late for a whole lot of past victims.

it seems like the organization & movement as a whole has fallen by the sociocultural wayside.

Scouting in the US has been in decline since the 1970s. It didn't help that they kept trying to cling to tradition and conservative values as the world evolved around them. The BSA particularly looked like assholes in Boy Scouts of America v. Dale in 2000. Then the BSA's sex abuse cases started blowing up around 2015-ish. Then the LDS church closed all their scouting units in 2019, cutting the remaining BSA membership in half. It's been a rough couple of decades.

my friends were Scouts but I was always too poor and my homelife was too unpredictable to be in any kind of organization with the kind of commitment requirements that Scouts required.

My friends in the early 90s that were in Scouts had a Scout Master that they all considered to be a creepy pedo. So its not anything new. Anytime there is young people and adults without proper supervision, this is bound to happen.

The priest that baptized me was a pedo and to make it even worse, he was moved away from a chruch when it came to light that he was molesting children

AND THEY MOVED HIM TO MY CHURCH. WHICH WAS ALSO A GRADE SCHOOL / JUNIOR HIGH

Let that sink in.

Right around the time that he "retired" one of my schoolmates just disappeared from school too. I have always wondered if that was connected.

Yeah, I don't go to Mass anymore. I don't do church anymore.

It seems good for people. Most people I've known who did it seem glad they did.

It's one of those things where I wish the governing body was more separate from the concept, and I feel for people who dedicated a great deal of time to a positive force in their life yet have to grapple with what the institution itself is.

My parents made me make eagle because "it would help you get jobs when you put it on your resume" but nobody gives a shit so I stopped putting it on there.

Military recruitment program.

I was a Boy Scout some years ago. I think as a programme to get young boys interested in outdoor activities it worked pretty well. As for the paedophilia scandals, I think they were intrinsic to how the group is organised. Their decentralised model that relies on volunteer scoutmasters is very prone to infiltration by people who have no business being around children and difficult to police because they can't actually supervise each individual troop but are still legally responsible for them.

I also think they sort of lost the plot with their whole transgender nonsense and their pivot to the "Scouting America" brand. Their exclusion of transgender boys and heavy emphasis on religion indicated a severe failure to get with the times. Transitioning from the Boy Scouts of America to "Scouting America" is giving up on their core model of being an organisation that serves primarily boys.

Don't take this in a bigoted way, I'm saying this not because I think gender segregation is good, but their core customer base (if you want to call it that) is teenage boys, and there's an allure to that demographic in being a part of an organisation that is designed to serve boys, seeing that the Girl Scouts are also a thing. The Boy Scouts have a strong anti-radicalising effect because they teach boys to be accepting of others with differences and to be open minded and learn from them. And girls sorta know that Scouting America isn't really for them, seeing that 80% of its membership consists of boys and the membership of the Girl Scouts USA (which is practically 100% girls) outnumber the female members of the BSA 5 to 1. So what's left is an organisation which boys think isn't for them, and girls also think isn't for them. So who's it for, really?

I can't go this long without acknowledging that for every failure of the former Boy Scouts of America, there is a corresponding success of the Girl Scouts USA. The Girl Scouts is far more secular as an organisation to begin with, and they are also more progressive in that they accepted transgender girls over half a decade earlier than the Boy Scouts, who pretty much had to be dragged kicking into the 21st century. I remember in my Boy Scout handbook a line which said, roughly, that "the BSA is a secular organisation, meaning we don't tell you how to worship, however, we believe boys cannot be their best selves without finding their connection with God." And even 13-year-old me knew that was a load of doublespeak rubbish. The BSA was a deeply religious organisation. Boy Scout events had organised prayers and they said grace before every meal at the camps. There is a difference between acknowledging the religion of what may be a majority of your participants, and trying to nudge the remainder into it, and I think the BSA fell on the wrong side of that line.

So while I think the BSA was an imperfect organisation, I still think it's a shame to see its decline.