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President also says presidential immunity for crimes should be removed and ethics rules for justices should be stricter

Joe Biden has called for a series of reforms to the US Supreme Court, including the introduction of term limits for justices and a constitutional amendment to remove immunity for crimes committed by a president while in office.

In an op-ed published on Monday morning, the president said justices should be limited to a maximum of 18 years’ service on the court rather than the current lifetime appointment, and also said ethics rules should be strengthened to regulate justices’ behavior.

The call for reform comes after the supreme court ruled in early July that former presidents have some degree of immunity from prosecution, a decision that served as a major victory for Donald Trump amid his legal travails.

“This nation was founded on a simple yet profound principle: No one is above the law. Not the president of the United States. Not a justice on the Supreme Court of the United States,” Biden wrote.

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[–] dhork@lemmy.world 149 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (11 children)

The problem is that doing any of these things in a matter which will stick will require amendments, because that is the only process that this compromised Supreme Court might respect. (And even that is not a given: I wouldn't put it past them to say that any amendment not passed by a Founding Father is invalid, or something).

So the first thing that needs to be done is to "pack" the court. (I prefer the term "unfuck", but that is less PC). This can only be done if Democrats take the Presidency and both houses of Congres, and nuke the filibuster. But it's that important. Dial the fucker up to 13, then go to Republicans and say "OK, now we need to work to fix the courts together. You can decline, but if you do you will watch Momala appoint 4 additional justices under the old rules, to lifetime terms, and bank on getting your own trifecta to re-fuck the Court".

While we have the amendment process open, we also need to set a limit to how long Congress can deliberate on any appointment, not just SC. Once a President makes an appointment, the Senate shouldn't be able to sit on it indefinitely. It should be guaranteed to get a vote in the full Senate within X legislative days. The Senate can vote it down, of course, but then the President can nominate someone else. Republican Senators challenged Obama to make a centrist pick for the SC, and he did. Mitch and Lindsey sat on it for months because they knew that it would pass if it went to the full Senate. This process basically gives the Senate Leader a veto over both the President and the will of the overall Senate, and cannot be what the Founders intended.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 56 points 3 months ago (1 children)

The trick with an amendment is even if you get the House and Senate, you still face ratification from the states.

So 38 out of 50 state legislatures need to ratify the amendment.

To put that in perspective... in 2020, Biden and Trump split the states evenly. 25/25, Biden also took D.C.

To get to 38, you'd need ALL 25 Biden states + 13 Trump states.

Even getting all 25 Biden states isn't guaranteed because of those, 6 have Republican controlled state houses.

So now you're looking at needing as many as 19 Trump states?

[–] dhork@lemmy.world 61 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Exactly. The path to an amendment is super difficult, and Conservative states have no incentive to do so while they have so thoroughly captured the Supreme Court. That's why you pack the Court first. Appoint 4 liberal justices in their early 40s to lifetime appointments, and you will see much more of a push from those Conservative states for reforms.

[–] Modern_medicine_isnt@lemmy.world 8 points 3 months ago (4 children)

The democrats have no intention of getting this to pass. They just want to use it to get out the vote. The constitutional ammendment process was created to expect both parties to work together, that just isn't the way things are anymore. So passing a constitutional ammendment is pretty much impossible.

[–] dhork@lemmy.world 16 points 3 months ago (4 children)

Right. The only way to get Republicans to consider an amendment is to make the status quo untenable to them, so they prefer change.

That's why you pack the court with 4 40-yr-old Liberals who can use the current rules to push the Court leftward for 30+ years . That will get them to change the rules quickly.

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[–] cyborganism@lemmy.ca 11 points 3 months ago (3 children)

As a non-American, what does it mean to "nuke the filibuster"?

[–] dhork@lemmy.world 27 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (3 children)

The US Senate only has 100 members (2 per state), and since the body is so small they pride themselves on not limiting debates there. But at some point they do need to decide to progress to a vote, and to do that someone makes a "cloture" motion to close debate on that issue and proceed to a vote. In the US Senate, a cloture motion needs 60 votes to pass.

What this means is that if a minority wants to kill a bill, all they need to do is maintain 41 votes against ending debate. It can never proceed to a vote, then, even if more than 50 Senators are in favor. This is what we call a fillibuster: when enough Senators prevent a measure from being voted on.

This filibuster is just a Senate rule, though, and can be removed by a simple majority vote of the Senate. In the current Democratic majority, though, there were just enough Senators who didn't want to nuke the rule to keep it in place. They are leaving, though, so if Democrats retain the Senate they will probably have the votes to change the rule.

The drawback is that someday, Republicans will take back the Senate, and if there is no filibuster Democrats in the Minority will have lost a key tool to gum up a Republican majority. But the SC is more important than all that. We need to reform the court ASAP, no matter the political cost.

[–] ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world 9 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Democrats in the Minority will have lost a key tool to gum up a Republican majority

Quick, name the last time Democrats with a Senate minority actually used the filibuster to block the Republican agenda. Whereas Republicans only have to threaten to filibuster (and not actually stand there talking for days on end) to block the Democratic agenda.

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[–] Steve 16 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Remove it as an an option.

Right now, any one senator can stop a vote on any bill by announcing they filibuster it.
That used to (decades ago) require them to stand and talk as long as they were able, to delay voting on the bill.
Now without the "talking filibuster" requirement, it becomes trivially easy for any senator to stop anything they don't like.

A filibuster can be broken, and a vote can be forced to happen, if 60 of the 100 senators agree to it.
That almost never happens, as no one party ever gets a 60 seat "super-majority".

Removing the filibuster will allow most any bill to pass with a standard 51% majority.
Stopping the minority party from blocking everything they don't like.

The rules of the Senate itself can be changed with with a simple 51% majority, since they aren't Laws that govern the land.
So it is possible to eliminate the filibuster without requiring a filibuster breaking super-majority.

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[–] Leeks@lemmy.world 7 points 3 months ago (1 children)

One of the ways to stall a bill is to talk about it forever. Here’s the wiki explaining it.

Technically speaking the filibuster is only acceptable because the rules of congress allow them, but the rules are changed and Agreed on by all members every year. So “nuke the filibuster” would mean to disallow it in the procedural rules of congress.

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[–] SapphironZA@sh.itjust.works 7 points 3 months ago

Exactly. Biden is still playing by the old rulebook.

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[–] OhStopYellingAtMe@lemmy.world 117 points 3 months ago (7 children)

If these reforms actually get implemented, Biden’s legacy will be enshrined as one of the most positively influential presidents ever.

If only he didn’t have the blemish of the Israel situation on his record, which (to be fair) he’s inherited-but has not handled well at all. I’m sure it’s way more complicated than what we know, but no matter what, it’s a bad thing to have attached to his legacy.

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[–] MagicShel@programming.dev 45 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

I'm for the changes, but I'm skeptical about whether anything can be accomplished. If the SC changes aren't done as an amendment, they'll be subject to SC review. Getting anything past either of those bars seems nigh impossible.

Similarly, if the SC rules that presidential immunity is implied in the constitution, they could also block that without an amendment.

Maybe the plan isn't to succeed but just to establish a record that Republican lawmakers are good with a supreme executive and corrupt courts, but I sort of feel like they've all but said that aloud anyway.

ETA:

But while we're on the subject of changing things, I wonder about after an 18 year term is up, if there would be any use for a sort of Justice Emeritus who doesn't get a vote, but can write concurring/dissenting opinions and maybe serve in either an advisory or ethics review capacity. So keep the lifetime appointment with all the advantages of that, but allow for the actual sitting court to change more over time. I don't know; I haven't really fleshed out the idea because it's a pipe dream at this point.

[–] disguy_ovahea@lemmy.world 13 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Getting them on record could aid in impeachment. That would require congressional majority, but would also get Congress on record.

This may be more about exposure and transparency than success.

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[–] cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone 33 points 3 months ago

if he really wants to hit republicans in every race, then run on the fact that republicans are talking out of both sides of their mouths when they claim presidents above 80 are too old to run but they seem ok with supreme court justices to essentially live their entire lives on the court.

[–] bappity@lemmy.world 30 points 3 months ago

18 years is a bit steep but glad it's even being pushed in the first place

[–] Hobo@lemmy.world 24 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Huh I've been saying this for years. Even commented it a while back on lemmy. hope they can get it through but don't have super high hopes unless the next couple of election cycles lean heavily towards the Democrats.

[–] roguetrick@lemmy.world 9 points 3 months ago (1 children)

It has nothing to do with election cycles, it must be bipartisan because it's a constitutional amendment that requires ratification. You need one election cycle to pass it in the house and Senate than a long political slog to get it ratified.

[–] Hobo@lemmy.world 10 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Well it has something to do with election cycles cause Republicans will block this every way they can. So the only way for it to even have a shot is for Democrats to take both the House and Senate with a 2/3 majority to be able to make a constitutional amendments. I sincerely doubt that would happen. After that it would take a very long political slog to ratification. Which again, I don't have high hopes for it to get through the States.

Election cycles are how people get elected, so it has a lot to do with election cycle leaning very heavily towards the Democrats for it to not be DOA. Then it has a long uphill battle to get it ratified by the states. To say that it has a slim chance of going anywhere is really overstating the chances of it happening.

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[–] Sam_Bass@lemmy.world 19 points 3 months ago (3 children)

Term limits should be 6 years or less. 18 is just too much to allow for

[–] chiliedogg@lemmy.world 75 points 3 months ago (3 children)

18 years requires that the entire Court takes 3-6 administrations to swap out, and is the shortest term in which a single President can't replace a majority of the justices.

With 6-year SCOTUS terms a 2-term President can select 100% of the justices on the Court, and would have a majority in their first term. It would completely remove the check against the Executive.

[–] jballs@sh.itjust.works 28 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (4 children)

Yeah, at the proposed rate the court would be comprised of:

  • 1 justice appointed by Bush Jr
  • 4 justices appointed by Obama
  • 2 justices appointed by Trump
  • 2 justices appointed by Biden

So you'd have a 6-3 liberal leaning court. Which makes sense since Democrats have held the presidency for 12 of the last 18 years.

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[–] Yeller_king@reddthat.com 20 points 3 months ago (3 children)

For SCOTUS I think the idea is to have an opening every 2 years. I can see the argument in favor of replacing them at about that rate. But maybe 1 per year is better. Regardless, I'd like to see the SCOTUS openings be more predictable and frequent.

[–] chiliedogg@lemmy.world 17 points 3 months ago (1 children)

18 years is perfect. It's the shortest term in which a single Predisent can't replace a majority of the justices.

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[–] werefreeatlast@lemmy.world 18 points 3 months ago

Sounds like a good plan!

[–] wax@feddit.nu 17 points 3 months ago

Hmm. Why not set also set a retirement age? Are there any rules for what happens if a judge gets early onset Alzheimer's or something?

[–] Boozilla@lemmy.world 14 points 3 months ago (1 children)

18 years is too long, IMO. That's 4.5 presidential terms. 10 makes more sense to me. But I'll be happy if they can get anything done re: SCOTUS scum.

[–] Carrolade@lemmy.world 43 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (6 children)

You want it to be long enough to retain some of the advantages of lifetime appointments. It wasn't originally framed that way just for fun or convenience, it does have importance.

We also need to make sure they don't need to go job hunting after their term limit is up, as that would incentivize corruption. They should retain their salary for life.

edit: Reading another comment in here, perhaps its important to note that the main advantage of the lifetime appointment is it allows Justices to be fearless. They can challenge the most powerful people in the entire country, because for their whole lifetime they need nothing more than their current job, which is guaranteed.

[–] grte@lemmy.ca 7 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Yeah, so the lifetime appointment thing is true right now and it turns out enables corruption. Perhaps the original justifications behind lifetime appointments were just, in fact, bad?

[–] Carrolade@lemmy.world 10 points 3 months ago (5 children)

More that something like corruption is impossible to completely prevent. So you just try to make it harder by reducing incentives. We can't get to "perfect" in a world with humans in it, but "better" is a realistically attainable achievement.

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[–] TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee 12 points 3 months ago (2 children)

That number is way too high, it should be 8 years, the maximum amount even a president is allowed to serve.

[–] warbond@lemmy.world 9 points 3 months ago

I thought the intent was to keep the number at 9 while still having elections every 2 years. Doesn't that come out to 18?

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[–] another@discuss.online 11 points 3 months ago (1 children)
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[–] OldWoodFrame@lemm.ee 8 points 3 months ago (3 children)

Anyone know where 18 years came from? 3 appointments per Senate term? 9 Congressional terms for 9 justices? 4.5 presidential terms?

One would think you'd want it to be an even number of presidential terms, so every president gets one appointment per term or whatever. Otherwise you open yourself up to Garland-esque shenanigans by the Senate.

[–] Bumblefumble@lemm.ee 18 points 3 months ago

Because there are 9 justices, so there would be a new appointment every 2 years, giving every presidential term two appointments. So it will exactly avoid all that shit this way.

[–] AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world 9 points 3 months ago

Historically, the average SC Justice has served about 16 years. 18 seems like a good length to eliminate the extreme cases without affecting the majority.

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