Ask Lemmy

Seems like maybe reality is at odds with a generalization. Maybe every cop is not a bastard, every landlord is not an oppressive monster, and every person who makes more money than you is not a net drain on society.

Maybe you have just discovered something rare and elusive: nuance.

This post reads like a lefty caricature by someone hard right, esp the last sentence.

Develop a more complex and articulated theory of the problems with American policing than “ACAB”. That’s a four word model of reality.

Shit’s complex.

i use to work with the police, and many i considered my friends. i know they were good people, but i also knew those on the force that were not.

part of the acab movement is about how the general public can never know which is which, so it is in our best interest to assume we are always facing the worst of the worst. your intimate knowledge of the person can be held separately from the movement.

i do understand that those good cops allowing those bad cops is a huge issue but thats really on them, not you. officers who attempt to 'fix' this issue arent officers for very long.

I genuinely believe ACAB, and this news has me conflicted because my new friend seems really cool and super nice.

What you’re experiencing is cognitive dissonance. New information is clashing with your prior beliefs, leaving you with a choice: either update your beliefs or double down and lie to yourself even harder.

I believe ACAB, and my cousin is actively trying to become a state trooper.

Doesn't mean I walk up and spit in his face at every family gathering. We talk, we grew up together, we shoot the shit and have a good time.

But if he asked me to condone or celebrate his job? Nah, he knows how I feel about the police and their profession, as long as he's safe and not drinking the Kool aid (he will) that's all I can hope. And that maybe he'll open his eyes someday. 🤷‍♀️

As a hard rule, though, I won't date cops or mess around with them. One reached out on a dating app recently and I just politely responded with "I'm not interested in law enforcement, sorry" to which I got "Uh, I'm actually a correctional officer."

Cool, so you abuse people after the police have finished abusing them, that's not the brag you think it is.

Idk add some nuance into your life maybe

Perhaps you should get to know your friend better, instead of stereotyping him. You can either learn a little about the nuances of a law enforcement career from him, or shun him and put your head back in the sand

ACAB is about defaulting to thinking of them as bad guys and enemies until proven otherwise. This new friend of yours has proven otherwise, why you so hung up on it. The world isn't black and white, there's all kinds of shades in between and it's not even a linear scale. Have some nuance in your morals and ethics.

First of all, I find your phrasing that he "is/was" a cop kind of interesting. Is he a cop or is he not? If he was but is no longer a cop, it could very well be that he left that career because he shares some of your same thoughts and feelings and you're getting yourself worked up over nothing.

Anyway

To me, ACAB means that all cops are bastards collectively

It does not mean that each individual cop is a bastard.

There are undoubtedly some cops that are good people, doing their damnedest to do the right thing, standing up for the little guy against the bastards, who are trying to make the system better from the inside, who understand the role that policing should be, etc.

And there are of course some who are bastards, who abuse their power and do all of the things that make policing shitty.

And there are cops who aren't actively bastards themselves, but also aren't doing anything to make waves and stand up against the bastards.

It's a case of a few rotten apples spoiling the bunch. The apple barrel has a couple absolutely amazing apples in there that are everything you could ever want from an apple, a whole bunch of meh run-of-the-mill grocery store apples, that do the job of being an apple well enough, but aren't going to make you stand up and say "holy shit, that's a good fucking apple," and then there's a handful of rotten apples that will make you puke your guts up, and unfortunately you don't get to pick and choose which apple you're eating, you just have to reach in blind and take a bite, and since those rotten apples are in there, it's a pretty big gamble to make, you have to really need that apple for it to be worth it.

However, entering into a friendship is different than other interactions you'd have with the police. You get a chance to inspect the apple before you eat it, to see if it's good, ok, or rotten to the core.

I'd say don't dismiss him outright because he's a cop, but try to feel him out, see what his attitude and philosophy is like, don't grill him on it, but take note of how he reacts when different subjects are brought up, and if you find something problematic with what he says, try to explain how your views are different in a non-confrontational way, don't make it a fight or an argument or a debate, just try to explain your thoughts and feelings and try to understand why he thinks the way he does as well. With the right people around him, it's possible that you could help make him or keep him a good cop when otherwise he might go bad, it's up to you if you want to take on that task.

This is one of many problems with “ACAB” because not every cop is one way or the other.

Reality is that a functioning society needs police officers. It sounds like you hit it off with this person and they have some good qualities that you like.

How do you expect the police to change if we don’t get involved? Getting rid of the police entirely is not a solution. But getting in and making changes from the inside is a valid way to make things better.

Why are you wanting to create an echo chamber for yourself? Why don’t you expose yourself to others and other ideas that are different than yours? What’s the harm there? Are you scared you won’t be able to change his mind or that his ideas might make some sense to you?

Can you separate the profession from the person?

Does ACAB mean the people are bastards, or does it mean it’s a job that can never be done ethically?

Is ACAB a critique of the people doing the job, or is it a criticism of our society for tolerating being policed?

It sounds like you are the kind of person that can't comprehend empathy and stepping into other persons shoes. If something doesn't happen to you you're sticking to pre canned ideas you heard repeated often enough.

What did you expect, that a cop would show up to a friendly meeting and bully everyone there? That's not what makes ACAB. it's the fact that s significant portion of them beat wifes, or use deadly force, or are unfair to minorities.

You're already going into the mode " he treats me ok so he must be nice to everybody". Ask him if he'd turn a blind eye if a homeless person steals food from a big supermarket, and you'll have a chance of glimpsing how he deals with problems and people on a non friendly, stressful, low stakes environment.

I don't know if this will help or not. I came across this video a while ago. It's a former cop describing what they deal with. I'm ACAB too, but they are still people being exploited just like us. The system is what we should be directing our anger towards. https://youtu.be/_nl5zMIwcmQ?si=mbAwDWi6vjGx3Njz

I genuinely believe ACAB,

Yeahhhh... No. That's not true. Being a police officer doesn't make someone a bad person. Good cops exist.

Yeah. Don't be a prejudiced asshole and see your friend for who they are. Being a cop is something they do, not something they are. Don't let hate infect you just because it's on your own side of the line.

Its never the people, its a system. Currently we have a system that allows for unqualified and even violent people in the police force, with little accountability. There are still those who join in good faith to serve and protect their community. Unfortunately it seems like they are becoming a slimmer and slimmer minority, but they are still prominent.

I wouldn't mindlessly hate your local police force until ypu have a reason to hate them. Police aren't some hivemind. I live in a small town and the local police are super chill.

With things like cops, you have to remember that if no one with morals goes into it, it'll keep getting worse.

I have a lot of family that are in some kind of law enforcement, and a couple friends from college that went into it as well.

If you cut them off because they're cops, then the only people who associate with them are assholes and it concentrates.

Just be upfront about it.

Couple months ago I ran into a friend of a friend from college who's a cop. The first and last things I said to him was dont be a fucking asshole. Other than that I treated him the same as if he wasn't a cop.

If we cut that dude out of our lives, the only people he'd talk to would tell him to be more of an asshole.

Like, obviously if he's doing shady shit, then fuck him.

The comments that say give them a chance? Not me.

This is just personal experience.

My college friend and I, both big into paintball, went our separate ways. Met up with him a few years ago, and he apparently joined the police for and was a serious boot licker. Extremely twitchy, constantly talking about danger. He then, as a plainclothes civilian with a badge, went up to harass some teens who weren't doing anything. Maybe he wanted to look tough? Either way, an absolute asshole.

My other friend decided to give a chance to a guy on tinder who was a cop. The guy was pretty cool when I hung out with him. He even played Yu-Gi-Oh and we made lots of nerd anime jokes. A few months later, she's calling me because he choked her. The break-up wasn't just messy. She physically had to take down all of her social media and move across the country. He kept going back and forth to bring incredibly nice to me, to then backhanded threatening me.

ACAB.

All cops means ALL COPS. I've known friends & family who are great people. Loving fathers, caring husbands, cool dudes all around, but they were none the less cops. If you want to still be friends, great, unless you're discussing potentially incriminating stuff, you're probably fine (but even then there are damn good reasons lawyers tell people, innocent or not, to NEVER EVER TALK TO COPS EVER). This is the kinda thing where a relationship must nessisarily be different from the rest of the group, for the safety of yourselves & others. Don't rat out your friend who's got a hungry newborn & no money for babyfood, for instance. Maybe this difference is for the better, maybe for the worse, that's yours to work out.

All Cops Are Bastards, not nessisarily because they, themselves, as individuals, are bastards. But because of the job itself. What it expects of these people, the mentalities/ideas/trained responses it instills in them, the training & culture, what is expected of them, their responsibilities & tasks, how they are conditioned to perform them, the laws they are paid to enforce & how they're made to enforce them, etc. All of these make them a bastard same as any other cop because THE JOB ITSELF IS A BASTARD.

I won't describe how, there's plenty of info out there, & it sounds like you already have some understanding of it. Here's a link or two anyway.

Bottom line, they can still be a friend. Definitely a different kind of friend than you might be used to, possibly not as close a friend as they might otherwise be, but still a friend. But until they get that pink slip, (i.e, get fired or quit) be careful. If not for yourself, than for the people around you who are vulnerable. People of color, women, homeless, mentally ill or different, queer, activist, even those they are closest to, all of the above & more qualify as such. The power he wields has been used constantly to frustrate the lives of the above since their badge was made of silver, & likely will be for some time to come.

All Cops Are Bastards, because the job itself is.

Somebody just learned the dangers of broad generalizations

A longtime friend became a cop around 2018. I told him I believed he would be a fair officer and that if more cops were like him, I wouldn’t dislike cops. But after their behavior in 2020 all throughout the UsA, I consider being a cop to be immoral. We’re not friends anymore because I think any cop with a shred of decency should have resigned after seeing their colleagues nationwide abuse people.

I’d let the friendship go, but that’s just me.

I'm not sure about being associated with a current cop.

If he was a cop, I would be curious to know why he isn't any more. If it's because he genuinely wanted to do good, but he left because he couldn't change the system, this would earn a lot of respect in my eyes.

Well, either you drop the All from ACAB... or your friend.

ACAB but some individuals can be cool enough. Just know they could turn on you easier than others.

My landlord is a cop, but he’s also a decent guy. To me. I try to bring up liberal talking points on the sly to at least expose him to alternate opinions. He’s not against them, so that’s good.

It’s hard. I kinda have to have a mental block up against the individual’s career choice, because he’s not one of the 100% asshole / racist / fully bastard cops. I know / knew some of them too, and I won’t give them the time of day once the convo showed their true colors (which, happens within an hour or less usually).

I guess they’re comfortable showing their true colors to me over a beer because we …look the same. Gross.

But, know that if it hasn’t already happened, there’s probably some humanity left in them.

I mean, try to steer him to not be "one of the bad ones" and always do the right thing even if that means the possibility of getting fired.

If he starts abusing his power, thats when you have to cut off the friendship.

Basically, act as his conscience, and stop him from getting corrupted by the system.

Remember, if its not him, someone else is taking his position. Just use the fact that this happened to be your friend to try to act as a moral guide. But be willing to confront him if he becomes corrupt and be prepared of the possibility to lose this friend.

My sister-in-law, a cop, married a cop. She also moonlights as a paramedic and fireman, but he does the investigative shit and comes home to his kids. Every now and then we hear of some bad news out their way and wait nervously until they get home.

She's a sweetheart and he's a great guy, funny as the comic actor he looks amazingly like. That's about it.

But I cheat: in Canada you don't become a Mountie because there's no other choice, but for the naive and noble desire to do good things. And they're paid low, accordingly. Maybe that attracts fewer scumbags? The ones I know from here and there are - except for the one fucking pedant - great humans.

I think you deal with it the same way you deal with someone of other political party. If you can have a reasonable argument with them and each explain your values and how you process some issues, it's OK if they come to a different place than you.
E.g. People can feel for the homeless and come to a different % of assistance vs. job training.

But, If it seems like they have an utter lack of empathy for a certain type of person, you call that out and see what happens. If they can't acknowledge human rights and dignity, you cut them off.

Talk to him and if he turns out to be a douche then stop and tell him to fuck off. NGL The Chance for him being a douche is higher because of his Job, but maybe he is not.

Just talk to him directly, either he reacts badly and you can leave hil, or he react nicely and you could learn something about the day to day of a different kind of cop.

Wouldn't be a friend.

I used to be besties with a cop. He was a good guy for a while, but then he had a hernia and got prescribed pain meds. And then he started getting invited to cop parties where they all swapped pills, and he got addicted to hard things. It changed him entirely - he became aggressive and scary to be around, so I told him my thoughts and told him that I didn't want to be around him. He didn't take it well, and I felt scared.

Be careful. Imagine how bad things could be if he decided he hated you and wanted to put the weight of his authority against you. It could be too dangerous to be worth it.